CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group  

Go Back   CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group > Catholic Continuing Education > Catholic Theology Q & A
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #11  
Old 15th April 2011, 11:33 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,775
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by feyfifer View Post
The early Genesis chapters do nuance a disappointment with man by God, in that he chose to sin. So, given the implicit faith God invested in man would God have known he was going to sin? Then Romans 5:14, 6:23, and James 1:15 emphasize that death is the consequence of sin.
The subsequent curses on the serpent, Eve and Adam would suggest that the physical world was changed for humanity. So, wouldn’t there have been an alternative experience of the physical world prepared for man?
Therefore would it be terribly wrong to propose that maybe instead of being told to worship Jesus on the cross, the angels were required to be subservient to Jesus as the perfect man with all of humanity being a part of Him, flawless from sin?

God is all-knowing, so his plan includes all our free will decisions, sins, etc. God knew Adam and Eve would sin.

The idea that God showed the Angels Jesus on the Cross and told them to worship Him is not doctrine, but a common opinion of theologians. But I don't think it is tenable for God to tell the Angels to be subservient to Jesus while presenting Jesus as if He were merely a perfect man, and not God made man. Also, your idea is based on the suggestion that God did not know man would sin, as if He expected that humanity would be flawless from sin. That idea is contrary to the doctrine that God is all-knowing.
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 15th April 2011, 08:25 PM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,686
Default not in betweens there....

In the end, we will be judged by which side we favored with our total loyalty, respect, and service. I do not think that playing it safe or straddling the fence is an option with salvation. We cannoot worship both this world and God.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 16th April 2011, 05:13 AM
feyfifer feyfifer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: India
Posts: 319
Default

No, I didnt mean merely a perfect man, Ron, but still retaining His divinity ...and I didnt understand the distinction youre making with.."and not God made man." Would you please instruct me further with that?

Also, may I qualify that my idea was based on the suggestion that perhaps God chose not to know that man would sin,..yes expecting that humanity could be flawless from sin....(perhaps until the time that man was matured to handle his sensuality in the way that God intended?)
Would that still be at odds with the doctrine that God is all knowing?
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 16th April 2011, 11:39 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,775
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by feyfifer View Post
No, I didnt mean merely a perfect man, Ron, but still retaining His divinity ...and I didnt understand the distinction youre making with.."and not God made man." Would you please instruct me further with that?
I simply misunderstood what you were saying.
Of course, Jesus is fully God and fully man, as one Person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by feyfifer View Post
Also, may I qualify that my idea was based on the suggestion that perhaps God chose not to know that man would sin,..yes expecting that humanity could be flawless from sin....(perhaps until the time that man was matured to handle his sensuality in the way that God intended?)
Would that still be at odds with the doctrine that God is all knowing?

Yes, that would still be at odds with the doctrine. God cannot choose to do anything that contradicts His Nature, and it is His Nature to be all-knowing.
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 18th April 2011, 03:49 AM
feyfifer feyfifer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: India
Posts: 319
Default

Okay Ron,..thank you for that.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 18th April 2011, 04:03 AM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,686
Default can this be said?

Can it be said that God created man knowing he would fall, but creating a process whereby those who willingly sought Him and tried to live as He dictated would be saved and those who did not would not? In other words, was God creating a system whereby those saved would have to earn that salvation through their free will?
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 18th April 2011, 11:36 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,775
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by garabandalg View Post
Can it be said that God created man knowing he would fall, but creating a process whereby those who willingly sought Him and tried to live as He dictated would be saved and those who did not would not? In other words, was God creating a system whereby those saved would have to earn that salvation through their free will?

Yes, except that salvation is a free gift; we do earn (merit) a reward in Heaven, but this is built upon the initial gift of salvation which is earned for us by Christ. Free will cooperates with the free gift of grace to obtain salvation.

But I agree that God knew we would fall, and so He knew that we would need to be saved by Christ. It was all known and planned in advance, from all eternity, in the timeless all-knowing mind of God.
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 18th April 2011, 06:06 PM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,686
Default Which one is more accurate?

Can it be said then, that Christ earned our salvation but we must accept that gift by deserving it or is it better to say that Christ earned our salvation but we must accept that gift by living as God wants us to live?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 18th April 2011, 06:57 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,775
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by garabandalg View Post
Can it be said then, [1] that Christ earned our salvation but we must accept that gift by deserving it or is it better to say [2] that Christ earned our salvation but we must accept that gift by living as God wants us to live?

#2 is correct. The initial justification of sanctifying grace is unmerited by us; it is merited for us by Christ. But to retain that grace unto eternal life, we must avoid sin, repent from sin, and live as God wills.

We cannot say that we must accept the gift of salvation that Christ merited for us, because accepting salvation requires grace. All of our good acts must be preceded by grace. If salvation were dependent on our acceptance, how would we accept unless we first received grace? Initial justification in sanctifying grace is prevenient (it is God acting alone). After that, we cooperate with grace; this is called subsequent grace (God acting with our free will).

The same is true for actual graces pertaining to particular acts. First, there is prevenient grace, given to us by God, unmerited by us, not requiring our cooperation. This grace makes us truly free and able to choose good. But next we either cooperate willingly with subsequent grace, or we refuse to cooperate.

But the initial grace does not require our free will or our good acts.
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 19th April 2011, 04:54 AM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,686
Default thanks again Ron

thank you for the clarification and explanation..
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.