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  #41  
Old 3rd April 2007, 11:53 AM
Paul Bellett Paul Bellett is offline
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Most people in my parish when they receive communion in the hand, go forward immediately and start dunking it in the chalice offered to them.
To me it is rather irreverant, like dunking a gingernut into a coffee cup.
In another parish (a charismatic one) the priest has banned the practice entirely, and people have to drink from the chalice, if they want to receive the blood of Jesus.
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  #42  
Old 3rd April 2007, 11:58 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Ron,

Jesus' human mind was limited but exceeded the understanding of every human being on earth. Angels have a more developed intellect than humans, but did Jesus' human mind exceed even angels' intellect?


Christ had the beatific vision from his human mind, correct? But that does not mean he knew everything at once (from his human mind). Still, why would he say that:

“No one knows, however, when that day and hour will come-neither the angels in heaven not the Son, the Father alone knows. " Matthew 24:36

If he had the beatific vision? So from this I presume that no one knows in heaven the day or hour of Jesus' coming (second?) Only God knows. Correct?

Peace to you

Roberto


In my theological opinion, Jesus' mind exceeded the capability of the Angels because his human mind is informed and taught by his Divine mind.

His human mind did not know everything at once. That is only possible with the Divine mind.

Mt 24:36 Jesus did not know in his human mind, but only in his divine mind.

In my theological opinion, the beatific vision is of the soul. His human mind still had many of the limits that our human minds have. His human mind was not yet glorified, and so could not participate in the Beatific Vision, which was only of the soul.

Notice how, in discussing the teachings of the Church, many questions arise which can only be answered with theological opinion. The Faith cannot stand based solely on infallible teachings, nor even based only on dogmas and doctrines. Pious opinion and theological speculation are needed to help us understand the teachings and how these relate to one another and to our lives.
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  #43  
Old 3rd April 2007, 12:00 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by Paul Bellett View Post
Most people in my parish when they receive communion in the hand, go forward immediately and start dunking it in the chalice offered to them.
To me it is rather irreverant, like dunking a gingernut into a coffee cup.
In another parish (a charismatic one) the priest has banned the practice entirely, and people have to drink from the chalice, if they want to receive the blood of Jesus.

It is not permitted for laypersons to receive in that manner:

"the option of administering Communion by intinction always remains. If this modality is employed, however, hosts should be used which are neither too thin nor too small, and the communicant should receive the Sacrament from the Priest only on the tongue"

Redemptionis Sacramentum, n. 103
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  #44  
Old 3rd April 2007, 12:03 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by Love The Fisherman View Post
There Is No Need To Speculate Concerning Our Divine Lord And His Blessed Mother. All These Questions Have Been Answered In The Revelations To Ven. Mary of Agreda Called MYSTICAL CITY OF GOD. Its Available From TAN At
http://www.tanbooks.com/index.php/pa...ywords/agreda/

private revelation to venerables, blesseds, and Saints does not fall under the category of infallible dogmas, nor of non-infallible doctrines, but rather of pious opinion and theological speculation. Private revelation is fallible because the recipient could have misunderstood what was revealed.
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  #45  
Old 3rd April 2007, 12:06 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by St. Thomas More View Post
Mary:
Ron will correct me if I'm wrong, but the Church's claim that the earth was at the center of the universe is certainly not dogmatic. It would fall under the temporal, not spiritual, authority of the Church. Therefore, the Church was expressing its opinion about a fact in the world.

However, before Galileo, Copernicus had already posited that the Sun was at the center of the Universe. And the Papacy did not punish Copernicus. Moreover, Galileo was specifically given permission by the Pope to publish a book explicating the theories that the sun was at the center of the universe (heliocentric) and that the earth was at the center of the universe (geocentric). In this book, Galileo chose to portray the Pope as a fool who simplistically claimed that the earth was at the center of the universe and, it was for this portrayal, that he was chastised by the Church. It was his arrogance and tone that got him in trouble.

Most important, the Church has been at the forefront of science. The University system was basically invented by the Church (Oxford was chartered by the Pope), and the Vatican has a world class observatory. Catholics believe in the Natural Law, and that God has bestowed us with reason to discern God's Natural Law through science and the scientific method. Thus, the Church has advocated and supported science, though the mainstream media tries to portray it otherwise.

St. Thomas More
-- "The King's Good Servant, but God's First."

Only one correction on the post above: the idea of the earth at the center of the universe was not really a temporal decision, but, being based on an interpretation of Scripture, fell under either the ordinary teaching authority (non-infallible) or under theological speculation. Not everything said or taught by a Cardinal or a Pope is a dogma or a doctrine; they also need to engage in theological opinion and speculation.


Ron
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  #46  
Old 3rd April 2007, 01:03 PM
BIDUMATTW BIDUMATTW is offline
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The Earth is certainly the spiritual center of the universe. The Earth is the abode of of God's most precious creation, mankind. The Incarnation occurred on the Earth. The Redemption, and the Return of Our Lord qualifies the Earth as the center of the spiritual universe, does it not?
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  #47  
Old 3rd April 2007, 01:33 PM
Rob Rob is offline
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Default On Galileo

Regarding Galileo.

In reality the question is more complicated that it might seem. It isn't true that the Church refused geocentric views, in fact there were many Jesuits, amongst them Clavius, at the time of Galileo who observed that the earth did indeed rotate around the sun (from observing Venus' recently discovered fases). Pope Paul V did even express congratulations to Galileo for his theories at the beginning. The more hostiles people were the aristotelian university professors who had very narrow views.
At the beginning the Church did not refuse Galileo' theories but kept a prudent approach. When Galileo sided the copernican view in his book "Letter about the Sun spots", the Church did not say anything contrary; cardinal Borromeo and cardinal Barberini (future Urban VIII) even wrote letters to Galileo congratulating him for his advanced theories.

The Church did ask Galileo to hold a cautious view on his theories and so far nothing wrong happened. Cardinal Bellarmino was the moderator between Galileo and the Church, and exchanged letters about scientific theories between Galileo and the Curia. Unfortunately he died later on, and Barberini became pope Urban VIII, who he was a great friend of Galileo.

When Galileo published a book called "A discours on the two greatest world systems" he defended the copernican view, rejecting other possible views but did not demostrate a new one. The book was also quite satirical against those who did not accept Galileo's views. When Urban VIII read the book he got quite angry because he saw a caricature of himself. That's where it all started.
Galileo did push himself too far from the Church's advises. He claimed that the copernican view was correct but didn't manage to get any more evidence than it was already known. He rejected non copernican ypothesys without giving explaination them and mocking those who believed in them. That's why the Church took a very hostile position toward Galileo.
The Church never expressed feelings toward Galileo's scientific views but more toward the consequences which these views had on the public and on society. The Church feared that a new "science" would have developed rejecting Church's authority, relying just on itself. That is exactly what is happening today with modern science. The Church asked Galileo to be cautious and use a "scientific approach", instead he bolstered his theories aloud discriminating the heliocentric view without giving evidence against it. The Church seemed to be using a more scientific and cautious approach than Galileo did.
did.
Peace to all

Roberto
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Last edited by Rob : 3rd April 2007 at 01:37 PM.
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  #48  
Old 3rd April 2007, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Ron, Jesus' human mind was limited but exceeded the understanding of every human being on earth. Angels have a more developed intellect than humans, but did Jesus' human mind exceed even angels' intellect?

Christ, as the Head of the angels and of mankind, was ministered to Christ (Mt. 4, 11). Christ in his earthly life was already in possession of the Beatific Vision (Mt. 18, 10 and Pope Pius XII, in the Encyclical “Mystici Corporis). As such, the Head could not lack anything that those under him possessed.

Cecil
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  #49  
Old 3rd April 2007, 04:35 PM
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I am probably completely off the wall here but this concept of Jesus not knowing things in his human mind is the kind of argument advanced by those who want women priests. They say he was constrained by the customs of his era and if he lived today he would allow women priests. It seems a dangerous concept to advance to have a division between his human and divine mind.
Mary
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  #50  
Old 3rd April 2007, 05:26 PM
Climacus Areopagite Climacus Areopagite is offline
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Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
His human mind did not know everything at once. That is only possible with the Divine mind.

Mt 24:36 Jesus did not know in his human mind, but only in his divine mind.


Holy smokes I leave the forum one day and I can barely catch up. These threads are on fire with questions and comments. Good stuff. Anyhow here is a quote:

{7:6} Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying: “Lord, do not trouble yourself. For I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof.
{7:7} Because of this, I also did not consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant shall be healed.
{7:8} For I also am a man placed under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
{7:9} And upon hearing this, Jesus was amazed. And turning to the multitude following him, he said, “Amen I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such great faith.”
{7:10} And those who had been sent, upon returni99ng to the house, found that the servant, who had been sick, was now healthy.

Notice in 7:9 Jesus was amazed. I always thought that this referred to his human nature or human mind and emotions, etc. Even if His Divine Mind knew this would happen from all eternity, still his human mind did not know it or experience it until that moment in time. That is part of the reason he was/felt/realized he was amazed.


Nicholas
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