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  #11  
Old 21st April 2007, 10:52 PM
Rob Rob is offline
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I’ll give a try, but it was a bit hard on the last point. I am finding this teaching series about infallibility very interesting, it really helps me understand the faith better and matters concerning papal infallibility. A Great exercise!

This constitution is about the beatific vision of God


The first four criteria are met. The fifth is not

5. The letter does not say that this teaching is to be held by the whole Church, I don't see anything addressing the whole Church, in my opinion the fifth criterion is not met.

In my opinion this apostolic letter is not infallibly taught, because the fifth criterion is not met.


P.S. Ron, I am not much sure about the last point, because there isn’t an explicit sentence stating that this teaching is to be held by the whole Church.
I formerly tought that the sentence: "By this Constitution which is to remain in force for ever", could at least inexplicitly refer to the whole Church, because the view is to be held "for ever and ever", but this seems more a renforcement of the third criterion. I am still unsure about the fifth point.

I would be interesting to hear from others especially about the fifth point. I have not quoted the first four points so that others can have a chance to state their own opinion. Any more documents to analyze? It's great fun!

God bless

Roberto
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For to me, to live is Christ; and to die is gain (Phil 1:21)

Last edited by Rob : 21st April 2007 at 11:09 PM.
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  #12  
Old 22nd April 2007, 12:49 AM
CRW
 
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Ron,

I do not understand this or think that it may be the source of disagreement; “Also the souls of those who will die in the future will see the same divine essence and will enjoy it before the general judgment.” I think Theologians are not in agreement with this statement because:

1 no one on earth knows how long an individual would require purification after death

2 the day of final judgment is not known, it could be very soon - soul’s could still be in purgatory on the day of final judgment

I also don’t think the criteria: 5. “in accordance with revelation itself, which all are obliged to abide by and be in conformity with”

I could be totally off base on this one.

Cecil
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  #13  
Old 22nd April 2007, 12:56 AM
Bernie
 
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Ron,
I suppose I will take the position of Devil's Advocate on this one. I believe the statement "By this Constitution which is to remain in force for ever, we, with apostolic authority, define the following: According to the general disposition of God" is an implicit indication that the Holy Father is addressing the whole Church. If true, this would make this an infallible pronunciation by the Pope.

Bernie
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  #14  
Old 22nd April 2007, 02:07 AM
Joan
 
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okay, just checking in.
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  #15  
Old 22nd April 2007, 03:49 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRW View Post
Ron,
I also don’t think the criteria: 5. “in accordance with revelation itself, which all are obliged to abide by and be in conformity with”

I could be totally off base on this one.

Cecil

Pope Benedict 12 wrote this Apostolic Constitution because a previous Pope held the erroneous view that the faithful do not receive the Beatific Vision until after the general Resurrection. That Pope (can't remember which one) repented of this error on his death bed. He was not in a state of heresy because the Church had not defined that point yet.

The fifth criteria is not so much the 'in accordance with revelation itself' which is already covered by the other criteria, but the 'all are obliged to abide by and be in conformity with' as a way of stating the obligation of the whole Church to believe.

This exercise is an open question. It is not clear whether or not the document meets the criteria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CRW View Post
“Also the souls of those who will die in the future will see the same divine essence and will enjoy it before the general judgment.”

He is merely saying that after death and after purgatory (if necessary), the souls of the just have the Beatific Vision, even before being resurrected at the general judgment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CRW View Post
1 no one on earth knows how long an individual would require purification after death

Not relevant, since he makes a point of going through all the different possiblities, such as direct to Heaven, or a stay in purgatory, those who died in the past, those who will die in the future, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CRW View Post
2 the day of final judgment is not known, it could be very soon - soul’s could still be in purgatory on the day of final judgment

On the day of judgment, Heaven, and Purgatory, and Hell are emptied.
Everyone is given a resurrected body, glorious for the just and horrific for the unjust. Then God makes a new Heaven and a new earth. And Purgatory is no more, because death is no more.
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  #16  
Old 22nd April 2007, 03:54 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie View Post
Ron,
I suppose I will take the position of Devil's Advocate on this one. I believe the statement "By this Constitution which is to remain in force for ever, we, with apostolic authority, define the following: According to the general disposition of God" is an implicit indication that the Holy Father is addressing the whole Church. If true, this would make this an infallible pronunciation by the Pope.

Bernie

my opinion is the same; I think that it is an infallible definition.

1. It is an Apostolic Constitution directly from the Pope
2. he says 'with apostolic authority'
3. he says 'we ... define' and 'Moreover we define' so it is clearly a definition
4. it is certainly a matter of faith, since it pertains to salvation, Heaven, and Purgatory
5. The fifth criteria seems to be at least implied by the overall force of the document, and perhaps also by the wording: "By this Constitution which is to remain in force for ever" It is also clearly a matter of great importance to the whole Church

So my opinion is that it is infallible. But I think that I am in the minority among theologians on this point.
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  #17  
Old 22nd April 2007, 04:00 AM
CRW
 
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He is merely saying that after death and after purgatory (if necessary), the souls of the just have the Beatific Vision, even before being resurrected at the general judgment.

My understanding of your answer; souls still in purgatory, on the day of final judgment, will be received in Heaven and experience the Beatific Vison, and then be call to the final judgment...

Cecil
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  #18  
Old 22nd April 2007, 04:04 AM
themilitantcatholic
 
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Ron, After reading all this; if I ever decide to join the priesthood, I would probably get straight A's.
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  #19  
Old 22nd April 2007, 04:20 AM
CRW
 
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Pope Innocent's teaching is to the effect that those dying with only original sin on their souls will suffer "no other pain, whether from material fire or from the worm of conscience, except the pain of being deprived forever of the vision of God" (Corp. Juris, Decret. l. III, tit. xlii, c. iii -- Majores).

Cecil
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  #20  
Old 22nd April 2007, 09:42 AM
Love The Fisherman
 
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Hi Ron, OK. I will adopt Robs Formula. Much Better.

1.“the Roman Pontiff”
2. “speaks ex cathedra” (“that is, when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority….”)
3. “he defines”
4. “that a doctrine concerning faith or morals”
5. “must be held by the whole Church”


1, "Constitution issued by Pope Benedict XII in 1336." First Condition.
2, "we, with apostolic authority, define the following:" Second Condition.
3, "...define the following......Moreover we define that...." Third Condition.
4, "...the souls of all the saints who departed from this world ....are and will be with Christ in heaven, in the heavenly kingdom and paradise, joined to the company of the holy angels. Etc." Fourth Condition.
5, This Criteria is not met, Ron.

What is being taught infallibly is the Doctrine of The Particular Judgement.
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