CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group  

Go Back   CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group > Catholic Continuing Education > Teaching Series - dogmatic theology
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #61  
Old 6th April 2007, 11:00 AM
Rob Rob is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sicily, Italy
Posts: 966
Default

Ron,

Concerning the Incarnation and Jesus' divine and human will. This might sound a bit speculative and perhaps too far, but I thought that even Christ could be a reflection of theTrinity with his divine will, human will and body. His human will kind of preceeds from his divine will and his body acts according to both his divine will and human will. See what I am saying? It's like a reflection of the Trinity. Is this a meaningless view?

Peace to you

Roberto
__________________
For to me, to live is Christ; and to die is gain (Phil 1:21)
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 6th April 2007, 01:24 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,588
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Padraig View Post
Would it not be better if the word, 'Dogma' had a precise universally understood meaning to avoid giving people like me a headache?

I have a sneaking suspicion some theologians may be using ambiguity about this to slip out from under?

There are many important works by the Fathers of the Church where 'dogma' is used much more broadly than it is today. We can't have a universal meaning of the word because of the many works in the history of the Church where the term is used in various ways. However, the Catechism gives something of a definition:

88 The Church's Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes in a definitive way truths having a necessary connection with them.

The problem with the definition in the Catechism is that it is not clear, and it is not binding on theologians (some of which irk me by using the term dogma too narrowly).

My interpretation of the above quoted paragraph:

'to the fullest extent' must refer to infallible teachings.
The term 'defines' must refer to infallible definitions under papal infallibility or by Ecumenical Councils.
The phrase 'proposes in a definitive way' extends even to infallible teachings under the Universal Magisterium, whose teachings are not definitions, but are one position taught by the Popes and the Bishops as definitively to be held. Such infallible teachings are proposed 'in a definitive way' but without a formal written definition.
The phrase 'truths having a necessary connection' with the truths explicit in Tradition and Scripture refers to truths implicit in Tradition and Scripture (Divine Revelation).

So my interpretation of this not very clear paragraph from the Catechism is that dogmas are any infallible teachings of the Magisterium. Of course, everything taught by Tradition or Scripture is infallible; so infallibility is not limited to the teachings of the Sacred Magisterium.

Ron
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 4th May 2007, 09:04 AM
Therese Therese is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 104
Send a message via Yahoo to Therese
Thumbs up

Thanks Ron, I understand this better now , I have been tempted to think that traditional Catholocism had all the answers in a nice neat package.

Regards Therese
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 4th May 2007, 11:27 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,588
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Ron,

Concerning the Incarnation and Jesus' divine and human will. This might sound a bit speculative and perhaps too far, but I thought that even Christ could be a reflection of theTrinity with his divine will, human will and body. His human will kind of preceeds from his divine will and his body acts according to both his divine will and human will. See what I am saying? It's like a reflection of the Trinity. Is this a meaningless view?

Peace to you

Roberto

No, I don't think this makes sense.
Any human person, as soul, spirit, body, is a reflection of the Trinity;
so Christ's human nature is a reflection of the Trinity. But you can't
say that His Divine Will is a reflection of the Trinity, since it is part of
the Trinity.

Ron
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 4th May 2007, 11:32 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,588
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Therese View Post
Thanks Ron, I understand this better now , I have been tempted to think that traditional Catholocism had all the answers in a nice neat package.

Regards Therese

Yes, one of the problems with the very conservative view is that they don't acknowledge non-infallible teachings, nor the role of fallible speculative theology. There is only the infallible, in their view. So whatever they think the Church teaches becomes infallible to them. Then when anyone teaches something that contradicts what they think Catholicism is, they brand that person a heretic.

liberal Catholicism has its errors, but so too does conservative Catholicism.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 4th May 2007, 03:19 PM
Brother Brother is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,835
Default

Interesting, so the Human Mind of Jesus is limited (as of any human, not His Divine Mind) as far as what is revealed to Him by the Father; this may explain the reason why we see Him asking questions to some of His followers some times:

[Matthew]
{15:34} And Jesus said to them, “How many loaves of bread do you have?” But they said, “Seven, and a few little fish.”

[John]
{11:34} And he said, “Where have you laid him?” They said to him, “Lord, come and see.”

Obviously, Jesus often asked questions only to test the faith (He already knew the answer); however, in His human nature He didn’t know all at once or the location of every creation in the Heavens and earth all at once like the Father does.

And also what it’s written in Luke:

{2:52} And Jesus advanced in wisdom, and in age, and in grace, with God and men.

Meaning His wisdom and grace (as a Human) was progressive.

I got two questions regarding Theology though:

Do women have a place in Theology?

And, is the answer to the first question a definite infallible teaching of the Church?
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 4th May 2007, 04:09 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,588
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother View Post
Do women have a place in Theology?

And, is the answer to the first question a definite infallible teaching of the Church?

The Magisterium has not defined the place of women in theology infallibly, or even non-infallibly, I think. It is an open question.

I would interpret the Bible to mean that women should not have positions of teaching, leadership, or authority over adult men. But this does not mean that they cannot learn or write or teach theology, in their proper role.


Ron
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 4th May 2007, 04:27 PM
Climacus Areopagite Climacus Areopagite is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,433
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Yes, one of the problems with the very conservative view is that they don't acknowledge non-infallible teachings, nor the role of fallible speculative theology. There is only the infallible, in their view. So whatever they think the Church teaches becomes infallible to them. Then when anyone teaches something that contradicts what they think Catholicism is, they brand that person a heretic.

liberal Catholicism has its errors, but so too does conservative Catholicism.

Amen to that.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 4th May 2007, 06:24 PM
Brother Brother is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,835
Default

Thanks Ron,

I would think women can study theology and then give their theological opinion which then can be observed and studied by the Magisterum which then gives the authority that that opinion may become non-infallible and then even infallible; this way they are accomplishing their role as a helper (helping the Church), not authority in the Church.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 4th May 2007, 07:31 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,588
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother View Post
Thanks Ron,

I would think women can study theology and then give their theological opinion which then can be observed and studied by the Magisterum which then gives the authority that that opinion may become non-infallible and then even infallible; this way they are accomplishing their role as a helper (helping the Church), not authority in the Church.

Sounds good to me.


Ron
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.