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  #1  
Old 17th April 2010, 12:29 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default Is lying always wrong?

Is lying….?

A. always immoral
B. always gravely immoral
C. moral or immoral depending on the intention and circumstances
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  #2  
Old 17th April 2010, 01:42 PM
sammy sammy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Is lying….?

A. always immoral
B. always gravely immoral
C. moral or immoral depending on the intention and circumstances

A. Yes. Lying is intrinsically evil and always immoral.
B. No. The gravity depends on the intention and consequences. Lying can be venial sin or mortal sin.
C. The morality of lying is defined by the second font or moral object or species of the act and independent of the intention and circumstances.
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Old 17th April 2010, 06:44 PM
zouxi zouxi is offline
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Always immoral.
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Old 17th April 2010, 10:03 PM
Shane Shane is offline
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Intrinsically evil and always immoral.

The gravity depends on the nature of the lie itself.
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  #5  
Old 17th April 2010, 11:40 PM
CB CB is offline
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I would like to ask a question.
To whom do we owe the truth? For instance, if the Fuller Brush man comes to my door, ( I know I'm dating myself here ), and I tell my kid to inform him that mommy is not available, when in fact, I am, is this an immoral act? Do I owe this man my time and am I obligated to listen to his sales pitch so as to avoid a lie?
In other words, am I to engage in conversation with this man just because he wants me to? Or, do I act rudely, and tell him that he is not welcome at my doorstep selling his products?
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  #6  
Old 17th April 2010, 11:58 PM
Arax Arax is offline
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It isn't a lie to say that you aren't available, because you are not available to see him. It would be a lie to say that you aren't home when you are.
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  #7  
Old 18th April 2010, 12:55 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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There is a certain approach to the question of whether lying is always wrong, which is to base the morality of lying on whether or not the other person is owed the truth. In this approach, if someone is doing evil, then it is claimed that telling falsehoods to that person is not a type of lying. But this approach is contrary to the teaching of the Church on intrinsic evil.

Lying has an evil moral object, because God is truth. And so lying is inherently immoral. Like all intrinsically evil acts, lying is defined by its moral object, not by intention and circumstances.

The intention to avoid harm, whether harming someone's feelings or grave harm to the innocent, never justifies any intrinsically evil act.

The circumstance that harm might result if one does not lie cannot change the moral object. Lying remains immoral; it is always at least a venial sin.

Any approach which defines lying based on the intention or the circumstances has the effect of nullifying the teaching of the Church that intrinsically evil acts are independent of intention or circumstances.
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  #8  
Old 18th April 2010, 01:12 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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To whom do we owe the truth?
Everyone, but especially God. Whenever we lie, we offend God.

For instance, if the Fuller Brush man comes to my door, ( I know I'm dating myself here ), and I tell my kid to inform him that mommy is not available, when in fact, I am, is this an immoral act?
Yes, it is immoral to tell a child to assert that a falsehood is true.

Do I owe this man my time and am I obligated to listen to his sales pitch so as to avoid a lie?
You are obligated to refrain from lying; you owe this obligation to God.
You are not obligated to listen to a sales pitch.
You can say, "I don't want to listen to your sales pitch."

In other words, am I to engage in conversation with this man just because he wants me to?
No, you are not obligated.

Or, do I act rudely, and tell him that he is not welcome at my doorstep selling his products?
When acting rudely is not a sin, then you may act rudely.
It is not a sin to tell him that he is not welcome to sell at your doorstep.
It is not moral to lie in order to be nice.
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  #9  
Old 18th April 2010, 12:01 AM
Rob Rob is offline
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A. Lying is intrinsically evil and always immoral.

B. If by gravely immoral we intend intrinsically evil, then yes it is a gravely immoral act, because in the act of lying there is total absence of good. However lying might not always be a mortal sin if there is not full and deliberate knowledge, or if the person is unaware that is an actual mortal sin, invincible ignorance, for example.

C. Lying always remains a sin regardless of intention or cirsumstance, and so always immoral. However intention or cirsumstance might lessen the gravity or the act from an actual mortal sin to a venial sin.
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  #10  
Old 14th August 2010, 12:55 PM
Mark
 
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I had an interesting discussion the other day on the topic of lying as it relates to the illegal immigration issue. I live in a very diverse community with close to half the population immigrants (many illegal in status). Our priest gives a social just sermon nearly every homily and is a champion for the immigrants to the point of making the english congregation often times upset at him for seeminly supporting illegal immigration.

However, in my recent disucssion on this topic, it was mentioned that we have never heard a priest address the lying, fraud and steeling of ID's that illegals have to provide in order to work in the US. It's as if, because they are just looking for a better way of life that these are just "little white lies" that are overlooked by God for a good end.

How is it that our Church remains silent on this aspect of the immigration isssue, when as Ron written much on, it is an intrinsic evil? Can God over look this as the "end justifies the means"? Is our priests silence on this Christian?
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