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  #91  
Old 16th October 2009, 07:42 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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From God's point of view, everyone who ever will go to heaven is already there, because God is beyond Time and unbounded by Time. The souls on earth who will go to heaven are already there, because heaven is timeless. But they are not in two places at the same time, because heaven is timeless.

Similarly, the Passion of Christ and its application are beyond Time: "His Paschal mystery is a real event that occurred in our history, but it is unique: all other historical events happen once, and then they pass away, swallowed up in the past. the Paschal mystery of Christ, by contrast, cannot remain only in the past, because by his death he destroyed death, and all that Christ is - all that he did and suffered for all men - participates in the divine eternity, and so transcends all times while being made present in them all. the event of the Cross and Resurrection abides and draws everything toward life." CCC 1085

And the Resurrection also shares in the timelessness of God and of Heaven: "In his risen body he passes from the state of death to another life beyond time and space. At Jesus' Resurrection his body is filled with the power of the Holy Spirit: he shares the divine life in his glorious state, so that St. Paul can say that Christ is “the man of heaven”." CCC 646
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  #92  
Old 16th October 2009, 08:33 PM
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Does it mean that everyone we meet in our daily lives who is not already in heaven, then, is in purgatory or hell? So, we might be sharing a laugh or happy time with someone who is actually already in hell?
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  #93  
Old 16th October 2009, 08:44 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Does it mean that everyone we meet in our daily lives who is not already in heaven, then, is in purgatory or hell? So, we might be sharing a laugh or happy time with someone who is actually already in hell?

Hell does not have the kind of timelessness that Heaven has. The timelessness of Heaven is a result of having the Beatific Vision of God, who is Eternity. And Purgatory is not timeless, since there is a type of passing of time as the soul suffers and learns and becomes holier.
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  #94  
Old 11th January 2010, 10:16 PM
zouxi zouxi is offline
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Ron, I was reading your articles on catholicplanet.com about the timelesness of souls in heaven, and you added that the souls in heaven live in timelessness and not in eternity (since heaven was created by God and didn't exist from eternity, and therefore it has a beginning and an end), now my question is:

Since God will move away the current heaven and create a new one after the end of the world (i,e: after the end of this material world that is trapped/caught in time and space) in the distant future....Does it mean that:

-The current souls in heaven are already in the second heaven? because the second heaven is timeless as well because God is eternity and the new heaven habitants will dwell in the same timelesness of God as well...?

Or

-The current souls in heaven know exactly when God will create the new heaven and they will experience the move to the new haven in the same time with the last departed soul in this material worl (i,e: first earh), and that in conformity with their timeless life accordingly?

Hope you got my question, what i mean is that the souls in heaven live in timelsness but God will create a new heaven according to a timetable (after the end of the material world,trapped in time).....how can we reconcile these two ideas?

In other words, the new heaven is not created yet in general or is not created yet according to us?

Thank you

Last edited by zouxi : 11th January 2010 at 10:29 PM.
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  #95  
Old 11th January 2010, 11:23 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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The souls in the first heaven, which has a beginning and an end, still share in the eternity of God. The first heaven is not eternal, but the souls their are correctly said to be in eternity since they are with God who is Eternity.

I don't know the answer to your question about the first and second heavens and the souls there.
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  #96  
Old 16th February 2010, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
From God's point of view, everyone who ever will go to heaven is already there, because God is beyond Time and unbounded by Time. The souls on earth who will go to heaven are already there, because heaven is timeless. But they are not in two places at the same time, because heaven is timeless.

Does this mean that the souls who are destined for Heaven, but are not yet born, are already in Heaven?

Does God already know the number of children we will have? Can I ask for the intercession of these children who are not yet conceived, to overcome obstacles and the fears about having them? Are they part of the communion of saints already (assuming that they are destined for Heaven), or do they only do so once they are conceived? I am not being facetious, but really wonder about this.
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Old 16th February 2010, 12:44 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Does this mean that the souls who are destined for Heaven, but are not yet born, are already in Heaven?

Does God already know the number of children we will have? Can I ask for the intercession of these children who are not yet conceived, to overcome obstacles and the fears about having them? Are they part of the communion of saints already (assuming that they are destined for Heaven), or do they only do so once they are conceived? I am not being facetious, but really wonder about this.

Heaven is beyond Time. So we cannot say that persons who have not yet been conceived exist in Heaven, as if they are waiting to be born. The human person, body and soul, is created at the moment of conception, and before that time, he or she does not exist. However, all persons who ever will go to Heaven are there already, not as if they existed before their conception, but because Heaven is beyond Time. And all such persons are part of the Communion of the Saints.

So I suppose that you could pray for the intercession of persons yet to be conceived. I will give a couple of examples where this type of intercession certainly occurs.

Jesus is God, and so He is Eternal. However, His human nature had a beginning point in Time. Yet the benefits of His suffering and death on the Cross, benefits of His human nature united to His Divine Nature, are poured out throughout Time and Place, even to persons who lived long before His Crucifixion.

The Virgin Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces to fallen humanity, of all graces except those to herself and to the human nature of Christ. So she must have been the Mediatrix even of the graces distributed before her conception. This can occur because she is Queen of Heaven, and is united to the Eternal God in the Beatific Vision. Mary is with God who is Eternal, and so she can distribute graces throughout all time, even to persons before her conception.
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  #98  
Old 16th February 2010, 10:01 PM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
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Default A bit of deja vu here

I think we discussed this before in some regard, but how does our free will tie in with the fact that God already knows our destiny?
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  #99  
Old 16th February 2010, 11:03 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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I think we discussed this before in some regard, but how does our free will tie in with the fact that God already knows our destiny?

God knows our future free will decisions, but He does not control those decisions. His grace enables our free will to be truly free so as to choose good.
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Old 18th February 2010, 06:04 PM
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Heaven is beyond Time. So we cannot say that persons who have not yet been conceived exist in Heaven, as if they are waiting to be born. The human person, body and soul, is created at the moment of conception, and before that time, he or she does not exist. However, all persons who ever will go to Heaven are there already, not as if they existed before their conception, but because Heaven is beyond Time. And all such persons are part of the Communion of the Saints.

So I suppose that you could pray for the intercession of persons yet to be conceived. I will give a couple of examples where this type of intercession certainly occurs.

Jesus is God, and so He is Eternal. However, His human nature had a beginning point in Time. Yet the benefits of His suffering and death on the Cross, benefits of His human nature united to His Divine Nature, are poured out throughout Time and Place, even to persons who lived long before His Crucifixion.

The Virgin Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces to fallen humanity, of all graces except those to herself and to the human nature of Christ. So she must have been the Mediatrix even of the graces distributed before her conception. This can occur because she is Queen of Heaven, and is united to the Eternal God in the Beatific Vision. Mary is with God who is Eternal, and so she can distribute graces throughout all time, even to persons before her conception.

What a beautiful answer, thank you, Ron.
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