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  #21  
Old 20th June 2007, 06:42 PM
untamed_angel
 
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Catholics are allowed to get divorced but they are not allowed to remarry in a Catholic Church unless their marriage has been annulled. You can divorce but need to live a celibate life if not annulled. This is what I have been told.


My marriage was annulled because of the frame of mind I was in when I married in the first place. I had to go through an interview which lasted nigh on four hours. Family members were interviewed over a long period of time. They tried to interview my ex husband but he declined. This isnt a decision taken lightly and I know many who have not been fortunate to recieve an annullment.
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  #22  
Old 20th June 2007, 06:51 PM
untamed_angel
 
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I forgot to say that you must be legally divorced before you can proceed with an annulment.

Joey I dont believe the Church wants anyone to suffer. After my long interview to start the process for annulment the Priest who was interviewing me said "Go and live life to the fullest".

He didnt mean get out there and find someone else. He just meant go and begin to live. I cant go into my situation here but a catholic marriage counsellor after one session with me and my ex said to us both "your marriage has been a living hell".

I was tormented for years about getting the annulment but not anymore. I was dying in it (not all to do with my ex but because of the effect marriage had on me in general mentally) I have lived celibately anyway because I have never met anyone. To enter into a physical relationship with anyone right now would excommunicate me from recieving the sacraments and noone is worth that. I did that for a year prior to getting married and I wouldnt do it again.
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  #23  
Old 20th June 2007, 08:36 PM
Joey Joey is offline
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Thank you Untamed, for your kind words.
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"Closer to You bid me, that with Your saints I may be praising Your name, forever and ever."

Joey
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  #24  
Old 22nd June 2007, 06:26 AM
CRW
 
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Ron,

Sacred Scripture is the infallible word of God.

Mt. 16:9 – and I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastely, an marries another, commits adultery; and he who marries a divorced woman, commits adultery,

I do not recall reading an official Church document which would qualify as infallible, concerning the current practice of annulments, especially for all the reasons they are now granted. Can the temporal authority override infallible scriptures?

As a follow-up to a previous question concerning a mistake by the Church in granting an annulment, if the Church believes it is correct, approved the annulment, and a couple then marries, surely in the eyes of God they are not in sin. From your teaching series: “actual mortal sin: when a person knowingly chooses to commit an objective mortal sin.” These individuals would not know that the Church had made a mistake in granting an annulment. Can two Catholic's really live in a natural marriage and receive the sacraments? Additionally, there marriage would or should be in the church. If they had married before the annulment, they would Convalidated their Vows in the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony.

Source: The second marriage is not a valid Sacrament at all. It is a natural marriage, if the first marriage was a valid Sacrament and the spouses are both still alive.

Cecil
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  #25  
Old 22nd June 2007, 11:58 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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{19:9} Dico autem vobis, quia quicumque dimiserit uxorem suam, nisi ob fornicationem, et aliam duxerit, mśchatur: et qui dimissam duxerit, mśchatur.
{19:9} And I say to you, that whoever will have separated from his wife, except because of fornication, and who will have married another, commits adultery, and whoever will have married her who has been separated, commits adultery.

Temporal authority cannot override Scripture, but the Church does have the authority to make temporal judgments in applying the teachings of Scripture.

One of the problems with annulments is that, if a couple does not have a valid Sacrament of Marriage, unless there is abuse, they really should stay together and have their marriage sanctified by a priest (thus obtaining a valid Sacrament of Marriage).

The criterium of fornication applies even to a valid Sacrament of Marriage, such that the couple can separate, but cannot remarry. And it applies to invalid marriages, such that the couple can separate and remarry.

The criterium of abuse is implied by St. Paul when he talks about an unbelieving spouse who will not consent to live with a believer. So that would be a natural marriage. Paul is exercising the temporal authority of the Church in applying teachings about marriage, which is why he says it is from him, not the Lord.

Annulments today are granted too easily. But the basis for granting them is that the marriage is not valid. Christ was referring to a valid marriage: fornication is a reason for separating, and this would not influence the other spouse to commit adultery, since they have already strayed.

If a couple are granted an annulment incorrectly, such that they still have a valid marriage, then they remarry, it may be a case of invincible ignorance, such that they do not realize that they are committing an objective mortal sin. But it may also be the case that they were not honest with themselves, or with the tribunal, so then they would bear some culpability.
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  #26  
Old 22nd June 2007, 01:52 PM
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Ron,

Thanks for the clarification. As I see it, Defect of Form or no valid sacramental marriage in the eyes of God/Church were ever consummated. This is normally a 90 to 120 day tribunal action; however, marriages that are valid is another situation and one I think is not constant throughout the Church and may be influence by status or money. The recent decision concerning the Kennedy divorce/annulment is just one example.

Cecil
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  #27  
Old 22nd June 2007, 06:20 PM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
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Default Spousal verbal and emotional abuse as to consent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
In cases of abuse, where other interventions have not been successful, the Church permits the couple to separate, and even to get a civil divorce. But the bond of holy matrimony persists, so neither spouse can remarry.

An annulment might be granted if one of the spouses did not give full consent, which must include a consent to the Sacrament of Marriage, not merely to a ceremony or to a natural marriage. If one spouse clearly never intended to consent to a true Sacrament of Marriage, an annulment might be properly granted. However, such things are difficult to judge, because the human mind and heart can be complex and deep, with many mixed motivations for any decision.

It seems from your points, Ron, that the only possible grounds on which a spousal verbal, emotional abuse situation could lead to an annullment would be as to the issue of consent, since the other two elements do not seem to be touched by such a situation. Given that, I would ask if anyone who ever marries in the Church truly consents to being abused verbally, emotionally and otherwise over many years. One may consent to marry X, but few if any sane, rational persons would ever marry X knowing that X would abuse them for most of the marriage. Given that point, it seems to me that there is rarely if ever any consent to being abused, thereby destroying the knowing, intentional consent element. Likewise, if the abusive spouse has been raised in a household where his or her father, for example, abused his or her mother, does that person enter the marriage having a full understanding that such verbal and other abuse in dysfunctional and has no place in the marriage?

It seems to me that the victimized partner does not enter consenting to being abused and the victimizing partner does not enter with a clear and healthy understanding of the true sacrifice, patience, respect and inappropriateness of abuse in a loving, functional and holy marriage. Given all of this, where is the consent, period?
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  #28  
Old 22nd June 2007, 07:09 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Consent is to the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony. If abuse occurs during the marriage, consent is not affected if the spouses both consented to holy matrimony. One cannot claim that a valid marriage later became retroactively invalid because of subsequent sins.

An abused spouse can separate, but cannot remarry, if the marriage was valid.
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  #29  
Old 27th June 2007, 12:33 PM
Justin Angel Justin Angel is offline
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Cool Divorced Fallen Away Catholic

Ron, I once had a Catholic friend who was married in the Church but years later chose to divorce his wife
and remarry a Protestant woman in her church. He divorced because there was no chance he would get an
annulment. Because of this state of affairs, he converted to her persuasion, the Calvary Assembly, and became
a disaffected anti-Catholic, quoting scripture left and right to justify his decision to fall away from the Catholic
Church. Hypothetically speaking, what would he have to do to reconcile himself with the Catholic Church and
revert? Is his second marriage polygamous, since he divorced and remarried? How would this second marriage effect
his wish to return to the Catholic Church? Thanks.
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  #30  
Old 27th June 2007, 01:49 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Angel View Post
Ron, I once had a Catholic friend who was married in the Church but years later chose to divorce his wife
and remarry a Protestant woman in her church. He divorced because there was no chance he would get an
annulment. Because of this state of affairs, he converted to her persuasion, the Calvary Assembly, and became
a disaffected anti-Catholic, quoting scripture left and right to justify his decision to fall away from the Catholic
Church. Hypothetically speaking, what would he have to do to reconcile himself with the Catholic Church and
revert? Is his second marriage polygamous, since he divorced and remarried? How would this second marriage effect
his wish to return to the Catholic Church? Thanks.

He would have to either leave his Protestant wife, or, (particularly if there are children who would be harmed by a second civil divorce), they could stay together but live celibately. He cannot return to his first wife. Assuming he was baptized and confirmed Catholic, he would have to go to confession. He might ask to join RCIA even though he does not need to be confirmed. His second marriage is adulterous, as Christ himself said.


Ron
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