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  #21  
Old 6th July 2007, 03:09 AM
Justin Angel Justin Angel is offline
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Cool Hell Is Not a Torture Chamber

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Dante's inferno is not a good description of Hell, because it's described according to medieval beliefs. For example Dante describes a Limbo of children just before hell, but we know that such limbo cannot contain infants, this limbo does also contain "virtous pagans", those who refused Christ.
His hell is also guarded by various mythological figures, such as the Minotaur and Cerberus, this ideas have nothing to do with faith for, as Ron's explained, in Hell both devils and men are punished.
Although the idea of having different levels of torture for each sin has merit, I don't think traitors are immersed in ice up to their heads.
Dante's Hell is just a play.

Let us keep in mind that Dante lived at a time when torture chambers were in vogue.
So he was prone to project human convention and invention into the hereafter.
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  #22  
Old 6th July 2007, 12:50 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by VeiledProphetess View Post
Ron,

I find your reflections on this topic weirdly comforting. It does seem reasonable to me that this is the way Hell works. I often am faced with objections to the Christian faith along the lines of "Why would a merciful God condemn people to eternal torture for temporal sins, or just for not believing in Him?" and this helps me with the issue.

Yes, the usual secular understanding of Hell is not compatible with the infinite Mercy of God. Of course, the Saints, in trying to strongly encourage people to do what is necessary to avoid Hell, have sometimes used various figures for Hell which are not entirely accurate. They have emphasized the eternal sufferings, not the Mercy. I would like to present a more balanced theological view of Hell.
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  #23  
Old 6th July 2007, 01:05 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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I think since my mother loves me so much that she would faint if she knows that something bad happens to me, she just being a sinner; then, how much more God would love me and all of us?. God definitely doesn't want any of us in Hell. It is up to us.

Last edited by Brother : 6th July 2007 at 01:09 PM.
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  #24  
Old 6th July 2007, 01:08 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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Regarding Dante's Inferno, I understand it's just a novel; a very good one, but just a novel.
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  #25  
Old 6th July 2007, 05:09 PM
Padraig
 
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Blessed Julian of Norwich, a great mystic presents a nice insight into hell and the future of the damned. She was concerned that the damned would be doomed for all eternity and quizzed Jesus about it in prayer. Jesus said, 'Everything will be alright, all will be well and all manner of things will be well.

I believe this, somehow Jesus will get things sorted. I will try to find the exact quotation, it cheers me up when I think of it.
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  #26  
Old 6th July 2007, 05:12 PM
Padraig
 
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The Lady Juliana was born about 1342, and when she was thirty years old, she became gravely ill and was expected to die. Then, on the seventh day, the medical crisis passed, and she had a series of fifteen visions, or "showings," in which she was led to contemplate the Passion of Christ. These brought her great peace and joy. She became an anchoress, living in a small hut near to the church in Norwich, where she devoted the rest of her life to prayer and contemplation of the meaning of her visions. The results of her meditations she wrote in a book called Revelations of Divine Love, available in modern English in a Penguin Paperback edition. During her lifetime, she became known as a counselor, whose advice combined spiritual insight with common sense, and many persons came to speak with her. Since her death, many more have found help in her writings.

'A matter that greatly troubled her was the fate of those who through no fault of their own had never heard the Gospel. She never received a direct answer to her questions about them, except to be told that whatever God does is done in Love, and therefore "that all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well."

Speaking of her visions of heaven and hell, she said, "To me was shown no harder hell than sin."


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  #27  
Old 7th July 2007, 05:27 AM
themilitantcatholic
 
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Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Many persons in Hell may well also have some sins from which they repented in life, but for which they did not complete the temporal punishment due. They cannot go to Purgatory to atone for this punishment. So they suffer in Hell for the temporal punishment due. But then the punishment for those repented sins ends. So their suffering decreases at that point in time.Ron

Ron, By way of daily mass, praying for sinners who have no one to pray for them, can we through the mass and through God's infinite ocean of mercy; storm the gates of hell and release sinners?

I recently read a book by Fr. Frank Pavone where he quotes Matthew xvi. 18; . . . "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Fr. Pavone says: "When we hear these words, we usually think, 'The Church will survive all the attacks launched against her,' and certainly that is true. But in a battle, a gate does not run out into the battlefield to attack the enemy. Rather, the gate stands still and defends the city against the enemy attacking it! When the Lord says the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church, He means that the Church is taking the initiative and storming the gates!"

I for one have always thought Matthew xvi. 18 meant that hell would not prevail in its attack against the Church, but after reading Fr. Pavone's interpretation, I have come to believe that through the mass and through God's infinite grace, we can "storm the gates of hell" through spiritual warfare and release sinners.

If I sound a little radical with this view, please correct me.
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  #28  
Old 7th July 2007, 12:38 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themilitantcatholic View Post
Ron, By way of daily mass, praying for sinners who have no one to pray for them, can we through the mass and through God's infinite ocean of mercy; storm the gates of hell and release sinners?

If I sound a little radical with this view, please correct me.

It is not possible for anyone who is in Hell to be thereafter saved or redeemed, not even by the infinite Mercy of God, nor by the power of the Church and the Mass. I think you misunderstood what Fr. Pavone was saying.


Ron
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  #29  
Old 7th July 2007, 02:55 PM
themilitantcatholic
 
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Okay Ron, I admit that I went off the deep end on that one. I like your interpretation of hell, I have never read one like it.
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  #30  
Old 7th July 2007, 05:24 PM
MarieMarie
 
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Ron,

Your interpretation of Hell is one of the best I've read, thank you. Much of it seems in sync with what St. Faustina has said, regarding her vision of Hell (quoted below, from her Diary). (After which I have a question about your interpretation.)

"I, Sister Faustina Kowalska, by the order of God, have visited the Abysses of Hell so that I might tell souls about it and testify to its existence...the devils were full of hatred for me, but they had to obey me at the command of God, What I have written is but a pale shadow of the things I saw. But I noticed one thing: That most of the souls there are those who disbelieved that there is a hell." (Diary 741)


"Today, I was led by an angel to the Chasms of Hell. It is a place of great torture; how awesomely large and extensive it is! The kinds of tortures I saw:

The First Torture that constitutes hell is:
The loss of God.

The Second is:
Perpetual remorse of conscience.

The Third is
That one's condition will never change.

The Fourth is:
The fire that will penetrate the soul without destroying it. A terrible suffering since it is a purely spiritual fire, lit by God's anger.

The Fifth Torture is:
Continual darkness and a terrible suffocating smell, and despite the darkness, the devils and the souls of the damned see each other and all the evil, both of others and their own.

The Sixth Torture is:
The constant company of Satan.

The Seventh Torture is:
Horrible despair, hatred of God, vile words, curses and blasphemies.
These are the Tortures suffered by all the damned together, but that is not the end of the sufferings.

Indescribable Sufferings
There are special Tortures destined for particular souls. These are the torments of the senses. Each soul undergoes terrible and indescribable sufferings related to the manner in which it has sinned.

There are caverns and pits of torture where one form of agony differs from another. I would have died at the very sight of these tortures if the omnipotence of God had not supported me.

No One Can Say There is No Hell
Let the sinner know that he will be tortured throughout all eternity, in those senses which he made use of to sin. I am writing this at the command of God, so that no soul may find an excuse by saying there is no hell, or that nobody has ever been there, and so no one can say what it is like...how terribly souls suffer there! Consequently, I pray even more fervently for the conversion of sinners. I incessantly plead God's mercy upon them. O My Jesus, I would rather be in agony until the end of the world, amidst the greatest sufferings, than offend you by the least sin." (Diary 741)

_____________

I have a question regarding temporal punishment in your interpretation. You say: "Many persons in Hell may well also have some sins from which they repented in life, but for which they did not complete the temporal punishment due. They cannot go to Purgatory to atone for this punishment."

Are you saying one cannot suffer temporal punishment in Purgatory at all? Is only Hell reserved for this punishment? My understanding is that the souls in Purgatory are suffering temporal punishment for sins they've repented, but were not yet punished for.

What of those souls who repent at the very last moment of life, with true contrition (perfect or imperfect), however did not live to complete the temporal punishment due....won't they avoid Hell by this act of contrition, as the good thief did?

Thank you.

MM
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