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Old 29th August 2007, 11:57 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default TS 11a: Mariology - Immaculate Conception

In the first moment of her conception, the Virgin Mary was preserved from inheriting original sin. Moreover, she was given the gift of sanctifying grace at that same moment. The moment of her conception was the moment when her body and her soul were created and united.

Mary was saved by Christ's death on the Cross from the first moment of her existence. The merits of His Cross were applied by Him at her conception. It was Jesus Christ who created Mary free from sin.

The Immaculate Conception is not only an event occuring in the space of a moment. The IC is a continuing gift to the Virgin Mary, which continuously preserved her from sin, and it is a continuing gift to the Church.

Mary was entirely unable to sin. It is not the case that she was able to sin, but happened to choose not to sin. For then our salvation would depend, not on Christ alone, but on the Virgin Mary's decision. Rather, she was made unable to sin by her IC. She was also unable to say 'no' to God at any time, including at the time of the Incarnation. Mary's fiat was made inevitable by her IC.

Mary retained her free will, but she could not say 'no' to God and could not sin, just as the souls in Heaven and in Purgatory cannot sin but retain free will. She was created at her IC such that free will and God's will were in complete harmony, of necessity.
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Old 29th August 2007, 02:38 PM
themilitantcatholic
 
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Through Mary, the Word was made flesh.
When other religions dissapprove or downplay Mary, in actuality they are downplaying God.
God chose to be incarnate through Mary. It is part of God's master plan.
I recently heard a homily about the Hail Mary prayer. The priest simply said "Do we realize how powerful the Hail Mary prayer is? The words Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Those are the very same words that God Himself told to the angel Gabriel, when God sent him to Mary, as God's messenger, Gabriel did not make up the words himself, he was conveying God's words to Mary."
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Old 29th August 2007, 04:57 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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True, it was also God who told Mary through Elizabeth: "Blessed art thou among women, and Blessed is the fruit of thy womb".

[Luke 1]
{1:41} And it happened that, as Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
{1:42} And she cried out with a loud voice and said
: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.

If God honored her that way, who are us not to honor her likewise?

Last edited by Brother : 29th August 2007 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 29th August 2007, 08:04 PM
CRW
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
It was Jesus Christ who created Mary free from sin.

Pope Pius IX bull stated: "The Most Holy Virgin Mary was, in the first moment of her conception, by a unique gift of the grace and privilege of Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesuit Christ"

So I understand, was it the gift and grace merited by Jesus Christ or Jesus Christ who created Mary free from sin? Am I just reading too much into it, is it the same, or am I not understanding?

Cecil

Last edited by CRW : 29th August 2007 at 08:09 PM.
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Old 29th August 2007, 08:18 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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was it the gift and grace merited by Jesus Christ
or Jesus Christ who created Mary free from sin?


Both.
the merits of Jesus' suffering and death on the Cross,
i.e. the Cross as a source of grace
saved her from the first moment of her existence.

Her creation and her salvation was an act of the Trinity,
so it can also be said that Jesus created her.
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Old 29th August 2007, 08:55 PM
Joey Joey is offline
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When we understand that Mary retained free will, but was not capable of sinning, could it be understood that she could make choices in every other way except for things that are opposed to God? In other words, she could choose to go barefoot instead of wearing sandals, she could choose to dine on figs instead of dates....but could she have chosen to be betrothed to another man, or do we look at St. Joseph as the one who was God-willed for her?
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"Closer to You bid me, that with Your saints I may be praising Your name, forever and ever."

Joey
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Old 29th August 2007, 09:32 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Mary retained her free will, but she could not say 'no' to God and could not sin, just as the souls in Heaven and in Purgatory cannot sin but retain free will. She was created at her IC such that free will and God's will were in complete harmony, of necessity.

Ron,

Was the Virgin Mary tempted by the devil while on earth?

[Revelation 12]
{12:13} And after the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who brought forth the male child.
{12:14} And the two wings of a great eagle were given to the woman, so that she might fly away, into the desert, to her place, where she is being nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
{12:15} And the serpent sent out from his mouth, after the woman, water like a river, so that he might cause her to be carried away by the river.
{12:16} But the earth assisted the woman. And the earth opened her mouth and absorbed the river, which the dragon sent out from his mouth.
{12:17} And the dragon was angry at the woman. And so he went away to do battle with the remainder of her offspring, those who keep the commandments of God and who hold to the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Does this vision implies that God banned or did not let the devil to tempt or touch Mary?

However the Virgin Mary will be able to do harm the devil without this one able to touch her?

[Genesis 3]
{3:15} I will put enmities between you and the woman, between your offspring and her offspring. She will crush your head, and you will lie in wait for her heel.
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Old 29th August 2007, 09:40 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey View Post
When we understand that Mary retained free will, but was not capable of sinning, could it be understood that she could make choices in every other way except for things that are opposed to God?

No. She had free will in all her decisions, AND she could not sin.
Both at the same time, because she was filled with grace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey View Post
In other words, she could choose to go barefoot instead of wearing sandals, she could choose to dine on figs instead of dates....but could she have chosen to be betrothed to another man, or do we look at St. Joseph as the one who was God-willed for her?

God chose Joseph to be the chaste spouse of Mary.
There was no one else who could have filled that role.


Ron
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Old 29th August 2007, 09:43 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Was the Virgin Mary tempted by the devil while on earth?

She lived in a sinful world, so she was surrounded by temptation.
But I don't know if the devil directly tempted her as he did Jesus.

Does this vision implies that God banned or did not let the devil to tempt or touch Mary?

That passage is about the Church in the end times, not about the Virgin Mary in past times. Certainly God protected Mary from the devil.

However the Virgin Mary will be able to do harm the devil without this one able to touch her?

She does nothing of herself. She participates in all that Christ does, and therein lies her strength.
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  #10  
Old 29th August 2007, 09:58 PM
Mario
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post

Mary retained her free will, but she could not say 'no' to God and could not sin, just as the souls in Heaven and in Purgatory cannot sin but retain free will. She was created at her IC such that free will and God's will were in complete harmony, of necessity.

Ron,

I'm not able to agree with you, yet, on this one. God creates humans for a purpose and in freedom. Thus, IMHO, each one of us demonstrates love for God by freely choosing to seek and obey his will. The key question is: can there be authentic love without the freedom to choose to disobey?

Mary has been called the New Eve and certainly Eve misused her freedom. You compare Mary with the souls that no longer exist in time. Mary had to make decisions in the world. When considering the context of the temporal order, the comparison of Mary to the saints is like that of apples to oranges.

From a human perspective, there is an unfathomable relationship between God's sovereignty and human freedom when contemplating the plan of salvation. I believe your theological position regarding Mary's singular privilege might go one step too far.

Could you help me out with this?

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!
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