CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group  

Go Back   CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group > Catholic Continuing Education > Teaching Series - dogmatic theology
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #11  
Old 29th August 2007, 11:33 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,590
Default

I don't see what your objection is.

Mary had free will. You of course agree.
Mary never sinned in the least. Again, you agree.

Could she have sinned?

If it were possible for her to sin, and she merely chose not to sin, then our salvation would depend on her choice not to sin. This is not possible, since the Faith has always taught that our salvation depends on Christ. Also, if it were possible for her to sin, but she simply chose not to, then the gift of the Immaculate Conception would be reduced in value and effectiveness.

Eve could sin. But the gift of the Immaculate Conception given to Mary is greater than the gift of original innocence given to Eve.

Therefore, Mary could not sin. She had free will, and she was unable to sin. Free will, in sinning, reduces its own freedom. Thus, sin is contradictory to free will. It is not correct to say that free will is not free unless it either sins or has the opportunity to sin. For the Council of Orange and the Council of Trent taught that sin harms free will.

It cannot be otherwise.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 30th August 2007, 01:04 AM
Mario
 
Posts: n/a
Default I love CP!

Ron,

Thanks for your clarification.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 30th August 2007, 10:53 AM
Love The Fisherman
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Ron,
Could you explain the difference between the Blessed Virgins Immaculate Conception and Her Perpetual Innocence (without sin) AND the situation of the Good Angels (No trace of sin has ever touched them, I think). Is their situation the same? Why do we call it a 'singular' privelage? Thanks.
Tomás
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 30th August 2007, 11:33 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,590
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Love The Fisherman View Post
Hi Ron,
Could you explain the difference between the Blessed Virgins Immaculate Conception and Her Perpetual Innocence (without sin) AND the situation of the Good Angels (No trace of sin has ever touched them, I think). Is their situation the same? Why do we call it a 'singular' privelage? Thanks.
Tomás

Mary is sinless and the holy angels are sinless.
However, Mary's holiness is not merely the absense of sin.
Even if all men and women were sinless, she would still be holier than all men and women, except Christ, put together.

Mary's Immaculate Conception is the gift of being conceived and born of parents who have original sin, yet not inheriting original sin. It is the gift of being conceived with sanctifying grace, and with the grace to avoid all sin throughout her life. So it is a continuing gift.

It is singular because no one else was conceived of parents with original sin, yet did not inherit original sin. Christ was without sin, but He was conceived of Mary, who did not have original sin to pass on to him. The holy angels were created sinless, their is no original sin to pass from one angel to another.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 30th August 2007, 02:49 PM
Brother Brother is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,838
Default

Thanks for your explanation Ron.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 30th August 2007, 07:27 PM
Brother Brother is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,838
Default

"The Virgin Mary is so filled with the Holy Spirit that there is no the smallest space for sin to enter"..I'm not sure who is the saint who said something like this, I think it was St. Louis de Montfort.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 1st September 2007, 12:47 PM
Therese Therese is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 104
Send a message via Yahoo to Therese
Thumbs up

Thanks Ron , I have read and understand
Therese
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 2nd September 2007, 05:01 AM
Justin Angel Justin Angel is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: South Korea
Posts: 163
Cool Full of Grace

When the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary in the Annunciation
he addressed her not by pronouncing her name, but by acknowledging
her perpetual spiritual state: "Full of Grace". Our Lady likewise
identified herself to Bernadette Soubrious at Lourdes by confirming
her unique and privileged spiritual condition: "I am the Immaculate
Conception." And so the Word of God swings full circle.

Pax vobiscum
Justin Angel
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 2nd September 2007, 08:10 PM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,657
Default How to reconcile with Mary's obedience?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
In the first moment of her conception, the Virgin Mary was preserved from inheriting original sin. Moreover, she was given the gift of sanctifying grace at that same moment. The moment of her conception was the moment when her body and her soul were created and united.

Mary was saved by Christ's death on the Cross from the first moment of her existence. The merits of His Cross were applied by Him at her conception. It was Jesus Christ who created Mary free from sin.

The Immaculate Conception is not only an event occuring in the space of a moment. The IC is a continuing gift to the Virgin Mary, which continuously preserved her from sin, and it is a continuing gift to the Church.

Mary was entirely unable to sin. It is not the case that she was able to sin, but happened to choose not to sin. For then our salvation would depend, not on Christ alone, but on the Virgin Mary's decision. Rather, she was made unable to sin by her IC. She was also unable to say 'no' to God at any time, including at the time of the Incarnation. Mary's fiat was made inevitable by her IC.

Mary retained her free will, but she could not say 'no' to God and could not sin, just as the souls in Heaven and in Purgatory cannot sin but retain free will. She was created at her IC such that free will and God's will were in complete harmony, of necessity.

Ron, given what you have said here, how can we reconcile all we constantly hear about Mary's obedience and humility since it seems you are saying that she had no choice but to obey?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 2nd September 2007, 08:14 PM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,657
Default The Blessed Mother's Magnificat is Truly Magnificent!

I believe that Mary's Magnificat is one of the most beautiful and profound prayers ever recorded. It is full of powerful meaning yet steeped in humility. Each word is laced with transcendental lessons for all of us.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.