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  #11  
Old 23rd January 2008, 02:07 PM
MA MA is offline
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o.k. what about this situation.....I attend daily mass at another church that is within 5 minutes from my work. The church is located in downtown where most of the homeless people live. I know for sure two to three attend daily mass, which I think is great. Some of them just go to pray. So imagine the church like older churches, a beautiful altar, St. Josephs on the right and Virgin Mary on the left with their own space to light a candle. At the entrance on the right you have the Pieta and on the left is Fatima. They both have their own little box to put money in and you can light a candle. A couple of days ago one the homeless stole money from both of these little boxes at the entrace. I had my suspicious but I had never really see him with my own eyes. He does it when the mass is happening and therefore you cannot go tell him something since there are few people at mass and therefore everyone will notice you are not paying attention. This is a big church but the morning mass few people attend since is early. So after mass, I went and told the superintandant/supervisor at church of what I have seen. His response was: It's very sad to see that some people have to go to that extreme to survive. He then seem upset, not sure if at myself or at the action of the homeless guy. He walked out and I said have a good day to make sure he was not leaving upset at me. He then said good bye.

So I was left puzzle by this. I could not bare in my concious to not say anything so I spoke but I was left puzzle by the response I had. I'm sure other people have seen him do the same and probably I'm not the first one to speak up. Being a girl I am afraid to speak to the homeless guy and get a smack on my head from him for correcting him.

Any opinions?

God bless,

MA
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  #12  
Old 23rd January 2008, 02:13 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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"In cases of need all things are common property, so that there would seem to be no sin in taking another's property, for need has made it common."

St. Thomas, Summa, II-II, Q. 66, 7.

Isn't the money in those boxes for the poor? He doesn't steal from the people who are at Mass, nor does he steal any items from the building. He takes money intended for persons like himself. The church should do a better job of giving to the poor in that neighborhood.
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  #13  
Old 23rd January 2008, 03:18 PM
sweet basil sweet basil is offline
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Ron,

In your example with the cancer, I think I would sit things out and get to a point of where the baby could be delivered safely. Then move ahead and have the uterus removed, chemo, etc... Not sure if in your example if waiting would also endanger the child. Of course, pray much in the interim.
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  #14  
Old 23rd January 2008, 04:44 PM
Climacus Areopagite Climacus Areopagite is offline
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how about these two common ones Ron:

The act of donating ones organs.
The act of getting a tatoo.

I sort of have an understanding of these but it would be nice to hear it fresh since they are more common today.
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  #15  
Old 23rd January 2008, 05:09 PM
VKallin VKallin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Does anyone have other moral problems to pose, either hypothetical or real?

Suppose that a woman is pregnant with her first child, and she next finds out that she has cancer of the uterus. The child is not developed enough to be delivered yet; she is in her second trimester. She needs to have her cancerous uterous removed, and she needs to start chemotherapy, in case the cancer started to spread. But either of those two treatments will kill the prenatal.

What are her possible moral and immoral choices?

I saw this exact situation a few years back in a very strong Catholic family. The daughter rejected all treatments which might have harmed the fetus, putting her own life at risk. Eventually a healthy baby girl was born and the treatments were started immediately on the mother. Today mother and daughter are both doing fine. At the time, I really did not know what the mother should do. I now feel quite certain that God intervened in this situation.
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  #16  
Old 23rd January 2008, 06:16 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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sweet basil and vkallin gave the correct answer as to what the mother can morally do. She waits until the child can be delivered safely, then receives treatment.

Now, what if she is in her first trimester, and it is clear that waiting will result in the cancer killing both mother and prenatal? What are her moral options and why?
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  #17  
Old 23rd January 2008, 06:17 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Climacus Areopagite View Post
how about these two common ones Ron:

The act of donating ones organs.
The act of getting a tatoo.

I sort of have an understanding of these but it would be nice to hear it fresh since they are more common today.

Why don't you give your analysis of the morality of these examples?
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  #18  
Old 23rd January 2008, 06:58 PM
Climacus Areopagite Climacus Areopagite is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Why don't you give your analysis of the morality of these examples?

good idea. I can put into practice what I am learning. Though I admit I dont have good grasp of all this yet.
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  #19  
Old 23rd January 2008, 07:15 PM
sweet basil sweet basil is offline
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Ron,

In the second situation, if it was totally clear that death would result for both mother and baby, I would make the attempt to save the mother as at least there would be the possibility of one surviving. Doing nothing if something was humanly possible to save one life would be neglect and seems there is a moral obligation to try.
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  #20  
Old 23rd January 2008, 07:28 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post


Now, what if she is in her first trimester, and it is clear that waiting will result in the cancer killing both mother and prenatal? What are her moral options and why?

Not sure, but I would consider the following:

According to medicine, In general, babies born after 24 to 25 weeks of gestation are mature enough to survive. A premature baby’s size also can influence how well he will do, with larger babies doing better than smaller babies.

So I suppose that if a baby can be born and has chances of survival as a premature in three months; then, it could be a possibility that a baby could be born premature so it would be moral to take this risk; and then, take care of the mother. In this case, both lives can be saved, but again, a risk is taken and not sure if it will work all the time. Prayer here is a big factor.

If the baby ends up dying regardless of the intends of saving his/her life, I think that, in this case, where the cancer would end up killing both, the mother and the baby, the procedure would be moral because of the intention of saving both lives and because the baby would end up dying anyway if not intent is made and the life of the mother can be saved at least.
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