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  #51  
Old 14th February 2008, 03:02 PM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
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Default Marital relations refusal as a double sin

"So to avoid adultery or other kinds of sexual sins, a husband and wife may have marital relations to quiet their somewhat inordinate sexual desire in a way that is permitted in the plan of God."

Ron, as you noted in an earlier post weeks ago, it is a mortal sin for a spouse to refuse relations with the other spouse at all times out of disdain, revenge etc. You noted Corinthians as stating that a spouse's body belongs to the other, hence for one spouse to refuse relations is, in effect, a form of infidelity to the marriage bond.

Your quote above adds another sin to this mix. God created marriage for the purpose of allowing procreation within a holy bond of love, and marital relations serve as the tool of both the possibility of procreation and solidifying and maintaining that love. When one spouse refuses relations with the other, is not that spouse,in addition to the infidelity sin, shutting off a channel that God has created in order for both spouses to "quite their sexual desire" without sinning? In other words, the refusing spouse is both sinning and pushing the other to sin as well?
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  #52  
Old 14th February 2008, 03:35 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Yes, and this is similar to what Jesus said about divorce:

{5:32} But I say to you, that anyone who will have dismissed his wife, except in the case of fornication, causes her to commit adultery....

He 'causes' her to commit adultery in that he has taken from her a way to quiet concupiscence, and also she has (in some cultures/times) little or no way to support herself without remarrying.
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  #53  
Old 16th February 2008, 02:31 PM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
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Default Trying to put things together here

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Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Yes, and this is similar to what Jesus said about divorce:

{5:32} But I say to you, that anyone who will have dismissed his wife, except in the case of fornication, causes her to commit adultery....

He 'causes' her to commit adultery in that he has taken from her a way to quiet concupiscence, and also she has (in some cultures/times) little or no way to support herself without remarrying.

What does "dismiss" mean above? Is it divorce or just not have relations with?

It seems that it would mean divorce since if B refuses to have relations with A her spouse it would make no sense to say that A can now refuse to have relations with B since that is already happening and A is not accomplishing anything other than giving B what B immorally has sought and achieved anyway. Assuming it means divorce,are we saying that a fornicating spouse gives the victim spouse the right to divorce? If so, is not fornication basically infidelity to the marriage bond? If so, since you said that refusal to have relations is infidelity and fornication is also infidelity and the above scripture says fornication gives the victim spouse the right to "dismiss" the guilty spouse, does not refusal to have relations give the victim spouse a morally valid reason to seek an annulment if not divorce?
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  #54  
Old 16th February 2008, 03:58 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by garabandalg View Post
What does "dismiss" mean above? Is it divorce or just not have relations with?

It seems that it would mean divorce since if B refuses to have relations with A her spouse it would make no sense to say that A can now refuse to have relations with B since that is already happening and A is not accomplishing anything other than giving B what B immorally has sought and achieved anyway. Assuming it means divorce,are we saying that a fornicating spouse gives the victim spouse the right to divorce? If so, is not fornication basically infidelity to the marriage bond? If so, since you said that refusal to have relations is infidelity and fornication is also infidelity and the above scripture says fornication gives the victim spouse the right to "dismiss" the guilty spouse, does not refusal to have relations give the victim spouse a morally valid reason to seek an annulment if not divorce?

In the case of fornication, they may separate, but not remarry. The bond of the Sacrament remains. A spouse who separates because the other spouse has committed fornication is not causing that person to commit fornication by the separation. Whereas a spouse who separates from or divorces a faithfull spouse is in effect pressuring that spouse toward sexual immorality.

Dismiss does not mean merely to refrain from relations. It refers to separation or civil divorce.

An annulment would mean that a true Sacrament of Marriage never existed. Separation in the case of a valid Sacrament of Marriage is permitted in some circumstances, such as continual abuse or adultery or fornication, but the Sacrament remains, so neither spouse can remarry.
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  #55  
Old 17th February 2008, 05:16 PM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
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Default Just one more question on this

[quote=Ron Conte;15337]In the case of fornication, they may separate, but not remarry. The bond of the Sacrament remains. A spouse who separates because the other spouse has committed fornication is not causing that person to commit fornication by the separation. Whereas a spouse who separates from or divorces a faithfull spouse is in effect pressuring that spouse toward sexual immorality.

Now, is it morally allowed for a spouse to divorce a spouse who refuses to have relations plus is verbally and psychologically abusive, especially when the abusive/refusing spouse has already expressed a desire for a divorce on numerous occasions?
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  #56  
Old 16th August 2008, 06:09 AM
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Sacredcello Sacredcello is offline
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What about assisting at a wedding ceremony of two Catholics in a non-valid marriage due to the groom needing an annulment which the couple did not want to wait for because the bride was 4 months pregnant?

This was the case of a friend of mine who asked me to be a bridesmaid and also to provide music for her wedding. I declined to be a bridesmaid, but I did provide music.

I reasoned that providing music for my friend was not much different than what I do for a living for hundreds of other couples who may already be sleeping and/or living together (though I don't know because I don't interview them about their personal lives.)

Incidentally, a Catholic nun presided at my friend's wedding. She was deputized for the day to perform a legal marriage.

Also, my friend continues to receive communion on a weekly basis due to her job as a cantor, even though I have politely informed her that this is against Catholic teaching until her husband receives the annulment and she receives the sacrament of reconciliation. She was the one raised Catholic, but seems to have less awareness or concern about these things than me.

I always feel like a blue-meanie when I think about going to confession for having helped my friend.

Perhaps this is the case of one who is living according to church teaching (me) and who is an official member of the institutional church, but another who is saved because they were a good person (my friend), but is not practicing the faith to the letter of the law.
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  #57  
Old 16th August 2008, 12:52 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Now, is it morally allowed for a spouse to divorce a spouse who refuses to have relations plus is verbally and psychologically abusive, especially when the abusive/refusing spouse has already expressed a desire for a divorce on numerous occasions?

Sorry, not to have answered this sooner. I'm not sure why I didn't get to it.

When a couple has the Sacrament of Marriage, they may nevertheless obtain a civil divorce for a grave reason. Such reasons would include severe and on-going physical or sexual or psychological abuse, or if the spouse refuses to allow you to worship God as a Catholic Christian.

Aquinas on the marriage debt
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5064.htm

Refusal to render the marriage debt for a lengthly period of time, without a grave reason, is a serious sin. A spouse is not justified in obtaining a civil divorce by reason of any serious sin at all, but only serious sin, which persists and which pertains to the marriage bond itself (especially to marital relations, since marital relations would cease in the case of civil divorce or separation).

Civil divorce is said to put the spouse in danger of committing adultery:
[Matthew]
{5:32} But I say to you, that anyone who will have dismissed his wife, except in the case of fornication, causes her to commit adultery; and whoever will have married her who has been dismissed commits adultery.

If the husband divorces the wife for refusal to pay the marriage debt, he does not put her in danger of adultery because it was she who chose to refuse him. So the prohibition against separation (by civil divorce) does not apply. And the serious sin of this refusal, which pertains to an essential part of the Sacrament itself (consummation), is sufficiently grave to justify separation by civil divorce.

So, morally, it is permitted.

But I would still counsel anyone in this situation to persevere, carrying his cross, and praying to God for the conversion of one's spouse.
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  #58  
Old 16th August 2008, 01:09 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacredcello View Post
What about assisting at a wedding ceremony of two Catholics in a non-valid marriage due to the groom needing an annulment which the couple did not want to wait for because the bride was 4 months pregnant?

This was the case of a friend of mine who asked me to be a bridesmaid and also to provide music for her wedding. I declined to be a bridesmaid, but I did provide music.
You were correct to decline to be a bridesmaid at an illicit and invalid marriage ceremony. Also, nuns are not permitted to officiate, under the form required for the Sacrament, unless they have special permission from the Bishop (etc.) and then only in cases where an ordained person is not available. So it would not be a licit or valid marriage even if they had obtained the annulment.

You informed your friend of her error, and refused to be a bridesmaid, this was sufficient to fulfill your moral obligation not to cooperate with sin. The role of providing music is not essential to the sins begin committed, but is mediate material cooperation:
http://www.ascensionhealth.org/ethic...ooperation.asp
So it is moral for you to provide music, or for someone to provide flowers, photography, catering, etc. to a wedding without concern for whether the wedding is licit or valid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacredcello View Post
Also, my friend continues to receive communion on a weekly basis due to her job as a cantor, even though I have politely informed her that this is against Catholic teaching until her husband receives the annulment and she receives the sacrament of reconciliation. She was the one raised Catholic, but seems to have less awareness or concern about these things than me.

It would still be against Catholic teaching if he receives the annulment, since they are not validly nor licitly married. They would need an annulment, and they would both need to be morally certain that the annulment was properly granted (if one obtains an annulment knowing that it should not have been granted, the marriage is not in fact annulled), and they would both need to go to confession and confess their sins of having relations outside of marriage, and of having had relations while he was still presumed to be married to his spouse (the presumtion that the marriage is valid continues until an annulment is properly granted), and of deliberately having celebrated an illicit and invalid marriage, and they would need to then obtain a valid and licit marriage.

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Originally Posted by Sacredcello View Post
Perhaps this is the case of one who is living according to church teaching (me) and who is an official member of the institutional church, but another who is saved because they were a good person (my friend), but is not practicing the faith to the letter of the law.
No, they are deliberately and knowingly committing mortal sin. She was 4 months pregnant at her wedding. They had relations while he was still, and is still, lawfully (under Church law) married to another woman. Their sins are most probably actual mortal sins.
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  #59  
Old 18th August 2008, 06:25 AM
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Sacredcello Sacredcello is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post

You informed your friend of her error, and refused to be a bridesmaid, this was sufficient to fulfill your moral obligation not to cooperate with sin. The role of providing music is not essential to the sins begin committed, but is mediate material cooperation:
http://www.ascensionhealth.org/ethic...ooperation.asp
So it is moral for you to provide music, or for someone to provide flowers, photography, catering, etc. to a wedding without concern for whether the wedding is licit or valid.


No, they are deliberately and knowingly committing mortal sin. She was 4 months pregnant at her wedding. They had relations while he was still, and is still, lawfully (under Church law) married to another woman. Their sins are most probably actual mortal sins.

Thank you for the link, Ron. It brings me some relief about this particular situation and also about having played for hundreds of couples who may have entered into invalid marriages (though I wouldn't know because I don't ask questions about their personal lives before agreeing to a contract to play music for their wedding). I have spoken to confessors about this, and been told not to worry, but I'm glad to have this affirmed.

I have suggested to my friend that she consider becoming Episcopalian if she does not agree with Catholic teaching on sexual morals. But, she laughs at this because her whole family is Italian. I admit, it was a suggestion that I knew she wouldn't take. But, then again, my friend considers herself "spiritual" and not religious, even though she was raised in the faith and feels a close connection to the Blessed Mother.

Like so many in this forum, I only hope that the Warning will bring about repentance in the lives of our loved ones who have fallen away from the faith. It seems that the Warning is the only hope for them to come back.

Last edited by Sacredcello : 18th August 2008 at 06:28 AM.
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