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  #21  
Old 26th May 2007, 04:43 PM
themilitantcatholic
 
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Originally Posted by Joan View Post
as in the passage regarding why humanity is never free from the scourge of war: "they are at war within their own members" is the explanation.

Ron, Besides man's own free will, are the fallen angels also responsible for the fall of Adam?

If the angels in heaven did not fall away from God, then man would not have been tempted?

Angels are spirits, how did they take part in battle, when the fallen angels were cast from heaven?

Since the fallen angels are spirit beings, by being cast from heaven, do they now wage battle against God here on earth, by having man in physical bodies commit sin and "war within their own members."?

Last edited by themilitantcatholic : 26th May 2007 at 04:44 PM. Reason: addition
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  #22  
Old 26th May 2007, 05:54 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Besides man's own free will, are the fallen angels also responsible for the fall of Adam?

Adam and Eve were entirely pure and holy, prior to the Fall. So they could not be tempted or tricked by fallen angels, except by their own fully deliberate sin. I don't know if we should say that the fallen angels were also responsible.

If the angels in heaven did not fall away from God, then man would not have been tempted?

Yes, man would not have been tempted. But Adam and Eve might still have sinned, because they had free will and they did not have the Beatific Vision. Just as, in the beginning, the angels sinned without temptation, so also man could have sinned without being tempted. But as to whether or not Adam and Eve would have sinned without temptation, I do not know.

Angels are spirits, how did they take part in battle, when the fallen angels were cast from heaven?

I don't know.

Since the fallen angels are spirit beings, by being cast from heaven, do they now wage battle against God here on earth, by having man in physical bodies commit sin and "war within their own members."?

The war within our members refers to the effect of original sin called concupiscence (a tendency toward sin by fallen mankind). Not all sin is of the devils. There are three influences on us toward sin: the flesh (i.e. original sin), the world (sinful society and the people around us), and the fallen angels. In that order.

Yes, fallen angels do try to cause people to sin and try to harm God's plan here on earth, out of hatred and spite and anger etc.
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  #23  
Old 27th May 2007, 03:47 PM
Climacus Areopagite Climacus Areopagite is offline
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I have noticed a tendency among pious Catholics. When something goes wrong or when there is an evil deed, etc. They tend to blame it on fallen angels. I think this is too short sighted. Especially when we know that they are stuck in hell. They are bound by natural creation in a non-physical realm. There power is very limited.
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  #24  
Old 27th May 2007, 03:51 PM
Climacus Areopagite Climacus Areopagite is offline
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Now I just remebered a story. One of the times Blessed Mary appeared to St. Bernadette the fallen angels were permitted to make a loud raucous which was distracting Bernadette. Blessed Mary simply turned her face in there direction and they were immediately silenced.

Last edited by Climacus Areopagite : 27th May 2007 at 04:02 PM.
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  #25  
Old 27th May 2007, 06:01 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by Climacus Areopagite View Post
I have noticed a tendency among pious Catholics. When something goes wrong or when there is an evil deed, etc. They tend to blame it on fallen angels. I think this is too short sighted. Especially when we know that they are stuck in hell. They are bound by natural creation in a non-physical realm. There power is very limited.

You are right, except that many of the fallen angels are not yet in Hell.
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  #26  
Old 27th May 2007, 06:35 PM
Climacus Areopagite Climacus Areopagite is offline
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You are right, except that many of the fallen angels are not yet in Hell.

Interesting. So where are they? Maybe still in the non-physical realms God created for the angels before they were tested? Does God permit them to stay there and not enter Hell in order for them to do harm on earth where He wills to permit it? Do you have any quotes from Scripture I would be interested.
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  #27  
Old 27th May 2007, 08:47 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by Climacus Areopagite View Post
Interesting. So where are they? Maybe still in the non-physical realms God created for the angels before they were tested? Does God permit them to stay there and not enter Hell in order for them to do harm on earth where He wills to permit it? Do you have any quotes from Scripture I would be interested.

They are on earth, stuck in time, unable to reach to the true Heaven or the Beatific Vision therein. They are permited to tempt us in accord with the limits of God's will.

{25:41} Then he shall also say, to those who will be on his left: 'Depart from me, you accursed ones, into the eternal fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels.'

Notice that Hell was prepared for them, implying that they were not immediately sent there.

{1:13} And he was in the desert for forty days and forty nights. And he was tempted by Satan. And he was with the wild animals, and the Angels ministered to him.

Notice that Satan is not in Hell at this point in time.

{8:16} And when evening arrived, they brought to him many who had demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word. And he healed all those having maladies,

Notice that the demons are on earth, not in Hell.

{5:7} And crying out with a loud voice, he said: “What am I to you, Jesus, the Son of the Most High God? I beseech you by God, that you not torment me.”
{5:8} For he said to him, “Depart from the man, you unclean spirit.”
{5:9} And he questioned him: “What is your name?” And he said to him, “My name is Legion, for we are many.”
{5:10} And he entreated him greatly, so that he would not expel him from the region.
{5:11} And in that place, near the mountain, there was a great herd of swine, feeding.
{5:12} And the spirits entreated him, saying: “Send us into the swine, so that we may enter into them.”
{5:13} And Jesus promptly gave them permission. And the unclean spirits, departing, entered into the swine. And the herd of about two thousand rushed down with great force into the sea, and they were drowned in the sea.

{20:2} And he apprehended the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and he bound him for a thousand years.
{20:3} And he cast him into the abyss, and he closed and sealed it, so that he would no longer seduce the nations, until the thousand years are completed. And after these things, he must be released for a brief time.

Notice that this passage refers to the distant future. Therefore, currently, Satan is not bound and is not in the abyss.
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  #28  
Old 27th May 2007, 10:19 PM
Climacus Areopagite Climacus Areopagite is offline
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very nice Ron thank you. I will look close at these.
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  #29  
Old 28th May 2007, 12:58 AM
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{20:3} And he cast him into the abyss, and he closed and sealed it, so that he would no longer seduce the nations, until the thousand years are completed. And after these things, he must be released for a brief time.

Ron,

Other then God’s will and order of things, is there speculation on why the devil must be released for a brief time?

Cecil
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  #30  
Old 28th May 2007, 01:03 AM
themilitantcatholic
 
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Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
They are on earth, stuck in time, unable to reach to the true Heaven or the Beatific Vision therein. They are permited to tempt us in accord with the limits of God's will.

Ron, I have a theory that since no one really knows how spirit beings do battle, my theory is that the battle between spiritual beings - good vs evil; is waged in the physical world here on earth, this is the battleground. The fallen angels cannot harm God Himself, but they can do harm to God's Creation and lead people to perdition. "They are on earth, stuck in time . . ." which leads me to believe thats how they battle God, through us physical beings, by tempting us, making us turn away from God. This is merely a theory that I have, maybe this is more for Speculative Theology. Also, since the spiritual world is unseen by us humans, maybe there is also a battle waged between spirit beings in another dimension outside our physical realm. Some of the things I've often contemplated.
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