CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group  

Go Back   CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group > Catholicism > the Church
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 2nd May 2011, 09:36 PM
Brother Brother is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,849
Default Shall we pray for Osama Bin Laden?

Ron,

I find the following article form this Orthodox Christian priest interesting:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/fr-pet..._b_856392.html

He says that we should not be happy for the death of anyone.

Quote:
We need to keep all of this in the proper perspective, be happy that justice has been done but we cannot and should not rejoice in the death of anyone.

Regarding the death of Osama Bin Laden, we should not be happy for the death of this man in the sense that he is lost (this is actually sad, very sad that a person who God so lovingly created is lost); but we should be happy in the sense that he will not cause more harm to fellow humans (that justice has been served). Is this correct?

Another question, we as Christians, should be praying for the soul of this man? Because of all that he has done, he is more likely that he ended up in Hell, if he did ended up in Hell, our prayers to him have no avail. But, are we sure that he went to hell?....we don't know the state of his soul at the moment of his death (perhaps he was in a process of repentance and fought in self-defense the last moments of his life), only God knows, so only He knows how to justly judge him; but regarding our part as Christians, is it correct to pray for God to have Mercy on this soul in the case he went to Purgatory?

From this priest article:

Quote:
This past week we remembered the events leading up to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. One of the most remarkable events took place whilst Jesus was on the Cross. He asked His Father to forgive those who had done this to Him! Think about it: Hanging on the Cross, Jesus asked God to forgive those who killed him. What an example He leaves for us. "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."
  #2  
Old 2nd May 2011, 10:15 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,592
Default

No, it's not correct.

See my post here:
http://ronconte.wordpress.com/2011/0...-of-bin-laden/

It could not be more clear that bin Ladin committed numerous very grave sins and died unrepentant. Catholic teaching is that all who die unrepentant from even a single actual mortal sin will be condemned to Hell forever by God. You can't pray for someone in Hell.

All death is in some sense a negative, a deprivation. But the good consequences of his death far outweigh that deprivation. The world is not a worse place now that he is dead, rather the world is a better place.

When someone is unrepentant from grave sin, we are not called by God to forgive them, but to forbear until they repent. Even Jesus Christ, in the Sacrament of Forgiveness, absolutely refuses to forgive anyone who is unrepentant from grave sin. This is a doctrine of the Faith.
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
  #3  
Old 2nd May 2011, 10:57 PM
imperial imperial is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Melb Australia
Posts: 97
Default

Agree Jesus said the road to heaven is narrow,
God is eminence love, love is everything including justice, and righteousness.
I feel it would be unjust to pray for him..........
the only thing that upsets me is Jesus shed his blood for him & it is sad when one goes to hell feels like a waste.
  #4  
Old 2nd May 2011, 11:20 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,592
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by imperial View Post
Agree Jesus said the road to heaven is narrow,
God is eminence love, love is everything including justice, and righteousness.
I feel it would be unjust to pray for him..........
the only thing that upsets me is Jesus shed his blood for him & it is sad when one goes to hell feels like a waste.

Good points. All who die unrepentant from actual mortal sin have wasted the grace of God. They have all received and been offered prevenient grace and subsequent grace, innumerable graces, which they turned away or wasted. Jesus died for each and every person. So it is a very sad and shameful day when anyone dies and goes to Hell (whether we know of their fate or not).
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
  #5  
Old 3rd May 2011, 03:51 AM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,657
Default My view on prayer as a valuable commodity which should be respected and well used

I think that prayer is a valuable commodity which must be respected and used wisely. For example, praying that one wins a lottery I believe is wasted prayer because I do not believe God will give someone a lottery win just because that person prayed for it. If it is meant that said person will win a lottery, if God wills that, it will happen whether said person prays for it or not. Just look at all who win without prayer.

Likewise, praying that your favorite team wins is wasted prayer because it implies that winning a sporting event is worthy of prayer. Now one can pray to honor God at the start of such an event or thank God that the event went well, but that is different from praying that one wins. Speaking of thanks and enlightenment and that some important event such as a surgery goes well, I believe that is not wasted prayer because these things are inherently good intents and deserving of prayer. In this vein, praying for the soul of such a person as OBL is, in my opinion, wasted prayer. Rather, one should pray that such violence as that caused by this monster should not be repeated or should at least be minimized as much as possible. Any comments welcomed.
  #6  
Old 3rd May 2011, 05:19 AM
TheGiftOfLife
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I will play devil advocate here:
Lets suppose that OBL beleived the Koran was the true word of God.
The Koran has plenty of verses that can be used to teach and brainwash many into thinking that killing people (even those whom we consider innocent) is what God wants.
Lets Suppose that OBL truly beleived that he was doing Gods work.

The Chruch teaches that NO ONE but God knows who is in Heaven and Hell.

It is completely possible that OBL is not in Hell as remote as it is.

I dont think is bad NOT to pray for him and it is up to each and everyone of us to set our priorities and use our prayer time as we see fit.

Personally I pray for ALL souls in purgatory, and if OBL is there, than I guess he is benefitting from my prayers.
  #7  
Old 3rd May 2011, 06:51 AM
feyfifer feyfifer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: India
Posts: 285
Default

God our father, in the first commandment to Moses says:
"I am the Lord Thy God, and Thou shall have no other Gods before Me!"

Jesus Christ, the second person of the trinity says unequivocally in John 14: 6
"....I am the Truth...."

A person in an honest and ardent search of the Truth and an intimate knowledge of God, must and will, be enlightened by the revelation of the true God Himself in the depths of his soul.

Thus, if there is only one true God, how can anyone believe that he does what God wants while behaving contrary to the nature of the one true god?

Let me offer an example...The Qur'an describes "the just and merciful allah" as being "as close to man as the vein in his neck!"...yet Muslims are characterised by their cruelty while slitting open the neck of man through beheading....all because they discern the will of god in the Qur'an !

Therefore it is inherently wrong to suppose that someone like OBL 'truly' believed that he was doing God's work, even for a secular person! But for someone who professes his faith in the one true God to do so, would border on the heretic!

.....and no 'lawyer tricks' can dilute the truth of that!
  #8  
Old 3rd May 2011, 11:21 AM
Jeanne D'Arc
 
Posts: n/a
Default

We can and must judge the acts of man, good or bad. We cannot and must not judge the state of his soul. We do not definitively know the state of his soul at the moment of his death. The same can be said for Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, etc. May God have mercy on their souls.
  #9  
Old 3rd May 2011, 11:34 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,592
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGiftOfLife View Post
I will play devil advocate here:
Lets suppose that OBL beleived the Koran was the true word of God.
The Koran has plenty of verses that can be used to teach and brainwash many into thinking that killing people (even those whom we consider innocent) is what God wants.
Lets Suppose that OBL truly beleived that he was doing Gods work.

The Chruch teaches that NO ONE but God knows who is in Heaven and Hell.

It is completely possible that OBL is not in Hell as remote as it is.

I dont think is bad NOT to pray for him and it is up to each and everyone of us to set our priorities and use our prayer time as we see fit.

Personally I pray for ALL souls in purgatory, and if OBL is there, than I guess he is benefitting from my prayers.

It is not possible for UBL to have been not guilty of grave sin due to some type of mistaken sincere belief in morality and the will of God. The Church teaches that the entire moral law is accessible to reason, in all of its requirements for each and every person. Now while original sin and personal sin and living in a sinful world make it impossible for us to perceive every requirement of morality by reason alone without error, the light of reason in any intelligent adult also makes it also impossible to sincerely misunderstand that we should love our neighbor and not kill the innocent.

Therefore, UBL must be guilty to the extent of actual mortal sin for his many crimes of hatred and murder of the innocent. He cannot possibly be free from grave guilt due to invincible ignorance.

Also, our Lord taught that the way to Heaven is narrow and the way to Hell is wide. But if UBL is in Purgatory (all who go to Purgatory eventually go to Heaven), then these words of Christ would be very false.

[Matthew]
{7:12} Therefore, all things whatsoever that you wish that men would do to you, do so also to them. For this is the law and the prophets.
{7:13} Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate, and broad is the way, which leads to perdition, and many there are who enter through it.
{7:14} How narrow is the gate, and how straight is the way, which leads to life, and few there are who find it!

{7:15} Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

Also, UBL is not a wolf in sheep's clothing, but a wolf in wolf's clothing. The Good Shepherd would never place an unrepentant wolf in the fold with the sheep.

When Christ appearred before the sinner Pilate, He spoke to him. But when Christ appeared before the wicked sinner Herod, He refused to say a single world to him, so great were his sins.
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
  #10  
Old 3rd May 2011, 11:43 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,592
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeanne D'Arc View Post
We can and must judge the acts of man, good or bad. We cannot and must not judge the state of his soul. We do not definitively know the state of his soul at the moment of his death. The same can be said for Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, etc. May God have mercy on their souls.

We don't know as an article of faith. But we do know with human certitude. For the teachings of Christ enlighten us as to what is good, and what is evil, as to the path to Heaven and the path to Hell. It is unmistakeably clear, even apart from the process of canonization, that Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul II live holy lives, died in a state of grace, and went to Heaven directly. It is unmistakeably clear that Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, UBL lived wicked lives, did not repent, and went to Hell.

The Magisterium has infallible teachings on the requirements for salvation and for repentance from grave sin. And all who are saying that such wicked persons may have gone to Purgatory and Heaven are ignoring those teachings.

A non-Catholic must repent with perfect contrition (out of love for God and neighbor) in order to be forgiven and returned to a state of grace after even a single actual mortal sin. The moral law is clear enough from the light of reason that all of the above named wicked persons would not be innocent of actual mortal sin due to invincible ignorance (sincere mistaken belief). These teachings of the Church are indisputable.

And it is clear as a matter of human certitude that the above named wicked persons did not repent, out of true love for God and neighbor, from all of their very many wicked sins. Therefore, we can be certain that they went to Hell.

May the Justice and Truth of God send all those wicked persons, and all who die unrepentant from actual mortal sin, to the tortures of Hell forever.
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.