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  #21  
Old 7th March 2012, 01:51 PM
jack
 
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Ron,

I am also surprised at how you banned so many people just because they saw a video by Michael voris. For the record I am not afraid to say that I see his videos though I haven't seen this one about 'eugenics and hitler'. Though I have seen his videos about 'Cost of abortion' and truth about Crusades. I also see some of his vortex episodes if they seem relevant to me. I am hoping that this doesn't mean I am a 'follower of Voris's teachings'. In the same vein I come to Catholic planet and read your blog everyday but I don't consider myself as your follower either. I only want to be a follower of the Church's teachings.

I agree that Voris's teachings might be theologically deficient compared to yours. But I don't think his videos at least on morals are against Church teaching. I definitely agree that he's got it wrong on Judaism and conspiracy theories. However I don't believe that seeing his videos constitute grave heresy nor that he is an evil man out to destroy the church.
I certainly hope you won't ban me for this post, and also that those who were banned will come back.
jack
  #22  
Old 7th March 2012, 02:45 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack View Post
Ron,

I am also surprised at how you banned so many people just because they saw a video by Michael voris. For the record I am not afraid to say that I see his videos though I haven't seen this one about 'eugenics and hitler'. Though I have seen his videos about 'Cost of abortion' and truth about Crusades. I also see some of his vortex episodes if they seem relevant to me. I am hoping that this doesn't mean I am a 'follower of Voris's teachings'. In the same vein I come to Catholic planet and read your blog everyday but I don't consider myself as your follower either. I only want to be a follower of the Church's teachings.

I agree that Voris's teachings might be theologically deficient compared to yours. But I don't think his videos at least on morals are against Church teaching. I definitely agree that he's got it wrong on Judaism and conspiracy theories. However I don't believe that seeing his videos constitute grave heresy nor that he is an evil man out to destroy the church.
I certainly hope you won't ban me for this post, and also that those who were banned will come back.
jack

Members will not be banned merely because they watch some of his videos and agree with some of what he is saying. Members are only banned if they consider him to be a reliable teacher of Catholicism, or if they use this discussion group to promote him as such.

For the record, I initially banned only "Mark", because he believed Voris' teaching on global warming and eugenics. This is what he wrote in the first post to this thread about Voris' video: "This is one of the best presentations I have heard on the religion of global warming and how it evolved from Hitlers Eugenics of the 40's". When I tried to correct him on that point, he promoted Voris as if he were a faithful Catholic and a teacher of sound doctrine.

"Jeanne D'arc" was only suspended, not banned initially. But she objected to my rejection of Voris and his teachings, and objected to being suspended, so she asked to be removed from the group. Then two other members also objected and asked to leave the group, apparently because they also view Voris as a reliable teacher of the Faith.

I am not looking to ban anyone. But I could not ignore Mark's assertion that Voris was correct in linking global warming to Hitler's eugenics. I cannot allow this type of patently absurd and gravely harmful material to be promoted in my discussion group. I also cannot ignore the harm that Voris does to the Church by spreading abject heresy and grave errors using the name Catholic.

Not everything Voris says is in error. Many, perhaps most, of his videos contain no grave doctrinal errors. But anyone who obstinately publicly teaches mulitiple heresies is not fit to be a teacher of Catholicism.
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  #23  
Old 7th March 2012, 05:48 PM
TheGiftOfLife
 
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Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
He teaches that Judaism is a false man-made religion.

Let me first say that I am pretty well educated on the Jewish faith, as there really is only one way to practice it, just like Catholicism.

I also know many that call themselves Jewish and have changed Judaism to fit their lifestyle.

Ron, are you sure M.V. was not talking about water-down, man-made versions of Judaism?

I will agree the statement "ALL JUDAISM" is man-made, is extremely incorrect. If he said that but didn't mean that and just failed to quality, then at worst hes guilty of being a bad communicator and not a heretic.
Ron, can you point me to audio/video or any writings on HIS website that show this. I also have no shame in contacting these people directly to set them straight if indeed he said this.

An extremely small percentage of Jews are Kosher, Sabbath observant or Orthodox. In fact they keep to themselves so much that the average person only knows of the watered down Judaism which has nothing to do with Judaism.

Last edited by TheGiftOfLife : 7th March 2012 at 05:58 PM.
  #24  
Old 7th March 2012, 05:52 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by TheGiftOfLife View Post
Let me first say that I am pretty well educated on the Jewish faith, as there really is only one way to practice it, just like Catholicism.

I also know many that call themselves Jewish and have changed Judaism to fit their lifestyle.

Ron, are you sure M.V. was not talking about water-down, man-made versions of Judaism?

I will agree the statement "ALL JUDAISM" is man-made, is extremely incorrect. If he said that but didn't mean that and just failed to quality, then at worst hes guilty of being a bad communicator and not a heretic.
Ron, can you point me to audio/video or any writings on HIS website that show this. I also have no shame in contacting these people directly.

An extremely small percentage of Jews are Kosher, Sabbath observant or Orthodox. In fact they keep to themselves so much that the average person only knows of the watered down Judaism which has nothing to do with Judaism.

See the links here, to each of my posts on each of his errors.

He says that all of Judaism is now a man-made religion, since the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem.

But, no, I don't agree that watered down Judaism is not Judaism at all. Just as I would not agree that Protestantism is not Christianity at all.

His error on consubstantialism is worse, from a theological point of view.
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  #25  
Old 7th March 2012, 06:02 PM
TheGiftOfLife
 
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See the links here, to each of my posts on each of his errors.

But, no, I don't agree that watered down Judaism is not Judaism at all. Just as I would not agree that Protestantism is not Christianity at all.

Well actually the correct analogy is, would you consider Protestantism Catholicism?

Reformed Jews come out of actual Judaism just as all Christianity comes out of Catholicism, the one true faith!

Ron, there is only one truth, and that truth is Catholicism.

I see no error is saying, that much of Protestantism is man-made.
  #26  
Old 7th March 2012, 06:06 PM
TheGiftOfLife
 
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The correct statements are:

Anyone practicing CORRECT Judaism, is not practicing a man-made religion, they are practicing the wrong thing since the covenant has been fulfilled with Christ.

Anyone who practices a man-made version of Judaism is not practicing the religion correctly

Anyone who practices any changes to Catholicism that are man made, are practicing a religion with man-made elements, some more than others.

I see that as all semantics.
  #27  
Old 7th March 2012, 06:23 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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I would say that only the errors in Protestantism are man-made. What Protestantism retains of the true Faith is of God, such as their devotion to Sacred Scripture. Similarly, only the errors in any version of Judaism are from man. The Jews still retain Scripture and a great devotion to God.
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  #28  
Old 7th March 2012, 08:05 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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It's sad to find out that some of our members, brothers and sisters in Christ, are not longer here. I'm sure going to miss Joan and the other members. Perhaps they agreed with some of the things M. V. said but not all of what he said.

I've also seen some of M.V. videos, I've liked and agreed with some of them but not with others. I've read Ron's articles regarding the doctrinal errors MV presents, I agree with Ron in those topics because he brings us what Catholic doctrine says, he shows up what Catholic doctrine says and not merely his opinions. The problem with M.V. is that he brings his opinions and shows no enough back up, he doesn't back up himself with what Catholic doctrine says regarding the particular topic, he does not talk with the actual documents or with enough researh, and that is dangerous when he is talking about something that is not Catholic teaching or that has not been defined by the Church.

I particularly, a fallen sinner, try to follow Christ, and when there is a discussion regarding our Faith and morals, I try to read and find out what someone is saying about, that's why I have seen some of M.V. videos, but I don't follow him. Sometimes, I even read what Protestants have to say regarding the Faith!, because God is not a respecter of persons (what I mean is that God doesn't choose some persons, in a particular range, to be infallible in all what they have to say) and even a Protestant may be saying a truth, as long as it doesn't go aside Catholic Doctrine. Sometimes I read what a Doctor of the Church have to say regarding the Faith!, but again, as long as it doesn't go aside Catholic Doctrine, it may be sound what that Doctor of the Church has said, but it doesn't mean that that person is infallible - again, God is not a respecter of persons. Even a Doctor of the Church is fallible, he is human and I'm conscious that he or I may be in error. Bl . John Duns Scotus did not respect what a well beloved and important Saint (Thomas Aquinas) had to say regarding the Immaculate Conception, it is because he was looking for the truth, God; not a person. Same thing with all of us who follow God, the only Truth.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/mary/scotus.htm

I'm going to be a little silenced during this Lent season.

Grace, peace and love to all, members and non members.
  #29  
Old 7th March 2012, 08:19 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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good comments, Brother.

[Acts]
{10:34} Then, Peter, opening his mouth, said: "I have concluded in truth that God is not a respecter of persons."

[Romans]
{2:11} For there is no favoritism with God.
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  #30  
Old 7th March 2012, 08:34 PM
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Sacredcello Sacredcello is offline
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As I understand it, the controversy about Michael Voris is similar to that of Christopher West. At first glance, West seems to have a good heart and desire to promote the Catholic faith. Yet, when you look more carefully at his message, one finds error after error and quite vulgar ones at that! For more detail, see Dawn Eden's master's thesis which critiques West's misguided approach to JPII's Theology of the Body. It might not be a big deal if these people were just acquaintances from church, but West and Voris are setting themselves up to influence large numbers of people through speaking engagements, etc. It is enough for me that Voris' bishop has forbidden him to speak at any parish in his diocese.

My first contact with Voris was through a person I know who promotes NFP. I would receive emails with political messages, including Voris videos. I was immediately put off by his flippant manner of speaking and condescending tone mixed with political commentary. Honestly, I find it offensive and I believe that it does a grave disservice to Catholic apologetics, in my opinion.

Currently, my husband and I are teaching an NFP class made up of couples who are highly educated, i.e. post-docs at Princeton, etc. I know for a fact that if we started talking about politics and ripping on certain politicians in our class as Voris does in this latest video, we would lose all credibility and respect. We have to give people credit for their own God-given intelligence in being able to think for themselves when presented with Catholic teaching. Voris does not do this. He hammers his audience with his opinions, as if they were in grade school. Actually, if I were in grade school, I would find his manner to be insulting. I don't like it when people talk down to children.

Nevertheless, I can understand why Voris appeals to faithful Catholics. It is difficult to be among the 5% or so of Catholics who believe and follow the teachings of the Church. It is frustrating and demoralizing. Voris speaks to this, and he does make some good points. But, because so much of what he says is laced with self-righteous and judgmental errors (i.e. Judaism is man-made, etc.), I can't bear to listen to him.

Note to Joan and Donna: I would love to get together for coffee sometime if you would like. Peace, Claudia
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