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  #21  
Old 11th January 2011, 02:49 AM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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yes Ron it is in here local site mix languages an evangelical forums some of the questions/ comments are ad homs ,repetitious and insults. Many of the good catholic apologist here left this site but I participate sometimes, there are few posters but in our observation there are thousands of viewers especially on the catholic board.
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  #22  
Old 11th January 2011, 12:45 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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OK, good. I'm happy to assist with some comments.
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  #23  
Old 14th January 2011, 02:55 AM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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thank you Ron, we greatly appreciate your kind help to us. Can I continue a just little bit more.
quote:

It is only now that I am beginning to appreciate the Sacred Tradition and the Sacred Scriptures to us, just like you, are sacred. And I see where we have deviated. We don't have the Magisterium.

From the looks of it, however, it appears that the Magisterium contradicts the Sacred Tradition and the Sacred Scripture.

If Jesus kept Sabbath and God, the Father, kepth sabbath and made the 7th day holy and sanctified, then is it not righteousness to follow along with the ways of God?

If it merits changing, would we consider it still Sacred?

Does that not put the Sacred Scripture and the Sacred Tradition subject to the authority of the Magisterium?
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  #24  
Old 14th January 2011, 03:26 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myLivingBread View Post
thank you Ron, we greatly appreciate your kind help to us. Can I continue a just little bit more.
quote:

It is only now that I am beginning to appreciate the Sacred Tradition and the Sacred Scriptures to us, just like you, are sacred. And I see where we have deviated. We don't have the Magisterium.

From the looks of it, however, it appears that the Magisterium contradicts the Sacred Tradition and the Sacred Scripture.

If Jesus kept Sabbath and God, the Father, kepth sabbath and made the 7th day holy and sanctified, then is it not righteousness to follow along with the ways of God?

If it merits changing, would we consider it still Sacred?

Does that not put the Sacred Scripture and the Sacred Tradition subject to the authority of the Magisterium?

The day when the Sabbath is kept is not a doctrine, but a discipline -- a practice. The doctrines are unchangeable truths, but the practices can be changed: "For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath." Jesus gave his full authority to the Church, and the Church celebrates the Sabbath on Sunday.

An accurate translation of the Gospels shows that Scripture teaches that the Sabbath was changed to Sunday by the event of the Resurrection.

[Matthew 28]
{28:1} Now on the morning of the Sabbath, when it began to grow light on the first Sabbath, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the sepulcher.

The day of the Resurrection was the first Sabbath of the Christian Faith.
A new Sabbath is used because it is a New Covenant.

[Mark]
{16:9} But he, rising early on the first Sabbath, appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons.

[Luke 24]
{24:1} Then, on the first Sabbath, at very first light, they went to the tomb, carrying the aromatic spices that they had prepared.
{24:2} And they found the stone rolled back from the tomb.

[John 20]
{20:1} Then on the first Sabbath, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and she saw that the stone had been rolled away from the tomb.

As for the relationship between Tradition, Scripture, and the Magisterium. The Magisterium is the servant of Tradition and Scripture, teaching only truths contained therein.

{14:26} But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will suggest to you everything whatsoever that I have said to you.

{16:12} I still have many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now.
{16:13} But when the Spirit of truth has arrived, he will teach the whole truth to you. For he will not be speaking from himself. Instead, whatever he will hear, he will speak. And he will announce to you the things that are to come.

The Spirit teaches through the Magisterium.
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  #25  
Old 16th January 2011, 10:49 PM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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Default continuation..

You said the Spirit teaches through the Magisterium. Couldn't the Holy Spirit teach directly? Doesn't the Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit shall teach, explain and reveal all things. And the Holy Spirit shall convict the world of sin.

The Holy Spirit works through the written Scriptures because He would reveal the meaning of those that are written. That is what the Bible says as you have cited in the following verses:

{14:26} But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will suggest to you everything whatsoever that I have said to you.

{16:12} I still have many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now.
{16:13} But when the Spirit of truth has arrived, he will teach the whole truth to you. For he will not be speaking from himself. Instead, whatever he will hear, he will speak. And he will announce to you the things that are to come.

My understanding of "to you" here is that it is for all people and not just to a few, like the Magisterium. Everyone would have access to the Holy Spirit if they call upon HIm.

I also find you citations different from the Bible that is known to every one. Let's take a parallel look at the verses you gave regarding sabbath:

[Matthew 28]
{28:1} Now on the morning of the Sabbath, when it began to grow light on the first Sabbath, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the sepulcher.

1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. (KJV)

1 But late in the sabbaths, at the dawning into the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene and the other Mary came to gaze upon the grave. (LITV)

1 Now late on the sabbath day, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. (ASV)

[Mark]
{16:9} But he, rising early on the first Sabbath, appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons.

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. (KJV)

9 And having risen early on the first of the sabbath, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons. (LITV-Literal Translation Ver.)

9 Now when he was risen early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons. (ASV)

[Luke 24]
{24:1} Then, on the first Sabbath, at very first light, they went to the tomb, carrying the aromatic spices that they had prepared.
{24:2} And they found the stone rolled back from the tomb.

1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. (KJV)

1 And the first of the sabbaths, while still very early, they came on the tomb, carrying spices which they prepared; and some were with them. (LITV)

1 But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came unto the tomb, bringing the spices which they had prepared. (ASV-American Standard Ver.)

[John 20]
{20:1} Then on the first Sabbath, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and she saw that the stone had been rolled away from the tomb.

1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. (KJV)

1 But on the first of the sabbaths, Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, darkness yet being on it. And she saw the stone had been removed from the tomb. (LITV)

1 Now on the first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, while it was yet dark, unto the tomb, and seeth the stone taken away from the tomb. (ASV)

I can't find "first Sabbath" in your version of the Bible, to be equivalent to "first day of the week".

Is your version endorsed by the Magisterium?

What versions of the Bible are endorsed by the Magisterium?
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  #26  
Old 17th January 2011, 12:16 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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The Holy Spirit does teach directly, to all who are prayerful and sincere in seeking truth. But sincere prayerful Christians often disagree, on nearly every question. So to solve this problem, Jesus gives us the Magisterium, exercised by the successors to Peter and the other Apostles. The Magisterium is a special teaching gift to the Church, such that certain truths can be taught infallibly. This makes the path of salvation more certain.

The ASV is based on the KJV; both versions have substantial problems, and in many places are translated too loosely.

The literal translation that you cite calls Sunday "the first of the sabbath", in other words the beginning of the Christian practice of using Sunday as the Sabbath.

Is your version endorsed by the Magisterium?
What versions of the Bible are endorsed by the Magisterium?

The Magisterium teaches on matters of faith and morals from Tradition and Scripture. The approval of a Bible translation is not a teaching, but a ruling under the fallible temporal authority of the Church.

As you said, the Holy Spirit works with each individual believer (as well as through the Magisterium, in my view). So you can understand that anyone who approaches the Scriptures with prayerful sincerity has grace from the Spirit to understand, perhaps to write commentary, and even in some cases to translate. But translation is not done under inspiration, as when the books were first written.
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  #27  
Old 17th January 2011, 03:29 AM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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Does the phrase "first Sabbath" in your version, equates to the phrase "first of the sabbaths" in the literal translation.

According to the Strong Dictionary, a sabbath could also be translated as one week:

G4521
σάββατον
sabbaton
sab'-bat-on
Of Hebrew origin [H7676]; the Sabbath (that is, Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension a se'nnight, that is, the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications: - sabbath (day), week.

The period referred to there is a week. So the first of the week, would be Sunday.

I find it unlikely that there would already be a teaching on Sunday keeping on the very first Sunday after Jesus' death. The teaching would have to be processed first because there was no teaching to that effect yet at that time.

As you were saying, the Sabbath was transferred by the Catholic Church to Sunday. The Gospel Books authors (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) would not know of any command from the RCC yet at that time, such that they could already effect the transfer of the day in their writings.

Does this not show that the RCC may be changing the writings in order to suit their doctrine of the change from Sabbath to Sunday?
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  #28  
Old 17th January 2011, 03:54 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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I think I've given sufficient reply. It is clear that this seventh day adventists is not going to accept any teaching of the Magisterium, nor any teaching of Scripture contrary to his own ideas.
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  #29  
Old 18th January 2011, 06:10 PM
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Do the Adventist still give tithes (10%), do not eat pork, stone people to death, etc.?...

Our Faith is based on the law or the prophets, even Moses prophesied that One greater to Him was to come. Jesus is the "new Moses" and some Pharisee dared to say to Him that He did not keep the Sabbath holy. The laws given to Moses were for a group of people (Jews) who foreshadowed the Church which is now Universal. So the laws of the OT. have been brought up to a higher level, a spiritual level. We do not prophesize the Jew faith, we are Christians and we keep Sunday holy, a mandate given us to us by God thru His Church.
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