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Old 12th October 2006, 09:11 PM
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Default "Traditionalist"?

I guess I am at heart a "Trad." However I take part weekly, or more often, in the present order of Holy Mass. The Latin, even in the "Novus Ordo," seems to convey a mysterium to the Mass that the vernacular, at least English, does not. Priests trying out their Gregorian skills on English just are often ridiculous-sounding. In any case, I still think women should cover their heads at Mass and we should genuflect at the "Et Incarnatus Homo Est" in the Creed, for starters. The news that our Holy Father, Benedict XVI, will soon grant a universal Indult for the Tridentine Mass is good news to me. I love using a Missal, a REAL Missal, and seeing the Priest tuning toward the Holy Altar instead of toward me. As a Baptist boy of 20 in 1965, Vatican II, and the abuses following it, kept me confused and turned me away from my plans to convert. I finally did convert, but was lost in a long religious search thereafter due to confusion with and in the Church. I'm back, and I love our new Holy Father. I think he has drawn the lines for our future in our dealings with Islam, and I pray daily for him and for the conversion of the Muslims.

Last edited by bupanishad2007 : 12th October 2006 at 09:27 PM. Reason: change "alter" to "Altar" --- I have an M.A. in English!
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Old 12th October 2006, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by bupanishad2007 View Post
As a Baptist boy of 20 in 1965, Vatican II, and the abuses following it, kept me confused and turned me away from my plans to convert. I finally did convert, but was lost in a long religious search thereafter due to confusion with and in the Church.

Bu, Welcome to the group, the confusion that you felt is very prevalent among many in the Church and outside, at it is no coincidence that confusion began after Vatican II. There has been so much confusion since the 60s, in the Church and outside throughout the world, where I think future historians will look upon these times as the Age of Relativism. Anyway its kind of soothing to talk to another Traditionalist, at times I get angry when I think of what they done to my Mass. I pray the Lord will consider my anger justifiable.
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Old 12th October 2006, 11:03 PM
Climacus Areopagite Climacus Areopagite is offline
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,433
Default Traditional Mass

Just wanted to add that some modern scholars (even a heretical fallen away Catholic named Joseph Campbell) have criticized the Church for changing the direction in which the Priest faces during the Mass. Instead of facing outward and to the east (the direction where Christ ascended into Heaven) now the Priest faces the people. This seems petty but it has enormous sacramental implications.

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Old 13th December 2006, 05:59 PM
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I have only ever known the standard Mass as it is today. It has inspired me and fed my soul. Nonetheless, I also have felt the greatest sense of awe, a sense of hushed awareness of God's presence and stillness, when the choir sings Vene Sancte Spiritus, and quietly the people join in, gaining fervency and strength as the hymn moves. We have a magnificent contralto soloist, also, who sang the Latin verses in the Vene Sancte Spiritus. Latin, again, inspires a grave sense of God's holiness and nearness when this soloist sings the Ave Maria and all of us can sing in Latin when we have the Kyrie Eleison also very rarely.

My point is, that the beautiful Latin praises and chants are so powerful. Second, less and less are the moments I described above permitted. I don't know why, but for about two years, maybe three--none of these beautiful moments are permitted anymore. In addition, the simple but beautiful English repetitions are being deleted. We used to sing Agnus Dei, three times, before kneeling. Now, it's English. And it's all about the cantor. We can't follow along well, because the Lamb of God is said once, then it's about five other selected titles for the Lord, and people don't know which title the cantor will be chanting, so we just stand and complete the phrase. It's about seven repetitions, I guess, and yes--I feel petty for being angry about it. I have to conquer anger before receiving the Lord in the Eucharist each and every Sunday Mass. I have to ask help and forgiveness for being so deeply distracted and outraged at such a Holy moment, and I do feel petty and mean. But nonetheless,

Why do they keep messing with the Mass? It is wrong.
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Old 13th December 2006, 06:05 PM
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Uh oh. I'll answer my own complaint I guess: they keep messing with the Mass and destroying Holy moments, because they are not, themselves, experiencing the Holiness and awe of those moments. They don't know they're destroying beauty and holiness, because they don't perceive it, do they? They think they're making things more interesting and less boring. They're bored and hate repetition, because it's just words to them and they're not entering with holy imagination and worship, into the moment. It's like, it's an aesthetic experience only for them.

that's my theory
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Old 14th December 2006, 05:17 AM
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Default 2Cor 3:15-16


I reluctantly share this for fear some might perceive a smugness or arrogance in this post.

Paul writes of his unconverted Jewish brethren:
...Yes, down to this very day, ...the veil covers their hearts; but when they turn in repentance to God, the veil shall be taken away.

The knowledge of one's sinfulness and brokeness is no longer stressed in many parishes. When my wretchness is contrasted with the gift of God's mercy, repentance fills my heart and the veil is rent. At that opportune moment of conversion in the presence of the Lord, both: transcendence and imminence, solemnity and joy, childlike trust and holy fear, no longer conflict.

Authentic repentance cultivates a yearning in me to experience the holiness and majesty of God; it rents the veil. The most poignant moment to treasure this should be at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. So often, the manner in which we celebrate the Novus Ordo misses the boat in this regard.

Perhaps like the unconverted Jews of Paul's day, those who have not experienced deep repentance, do not know or seek to understand the yearning to both rejoice and tremble before a holy God.

They keep messing it up.

Last edited by Mario : 14th December 2006 at 05:20 AM.
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Old 8th May 2008, 10:45 PM
Bible Apprentice Bible Apprentice is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 207

I can't speak for what the mass should or shouldn't be, but I know that the more I learn about my faith, the more I love Jesus, and the more I love Jesus the more a crave the traditional mass.

Before I began to understand about the Real Presence and what the Sacrifice of Mass is, I advocated for the upbeat selection of modern hymns, the “interesting” theatrical homilies complete with high tech drama, the wandering around to make sure I shook every hand at the sing of peace.

But the more I discover God and Jesus and the Spirit, the more I want the kind of mass that is reverend: Latin chant, God-centered homilies (the priest is not the guest of honor), silence after Communion. I find the priest’s face to be a distraction when I am trying to focus on the Body of Christ at the Consecration. There is room for all kinds of expressions of faith, but that doesn't mean the room is the Church during the Sacrifice of Jesus in the Holy Mass.

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Old 11th May 2008, 12:47 PM
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Look at some pictures from pontifical holy mass and sacrament of confirmation,
from Kraków (Cracow), Poland.
Isn't this rite powerful and miraculous?
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Old 11th May 2008, 04:51 PM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,657
Default The devil's m.o. is clear and almost predictable

I have learned that the most seemingly minute and insignificant things are often far more important than we realize. This is how the devil works his way into things. He begins with small things, which he then uses to justify larger and larger things until soon he has a grip on everything.

This is how abortion and a slew of other evils spread. Just look at the history of their development..
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