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  #51  
Old 25th September 2010, 11:35 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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semi calvinist:
i think It is clear for me your explanation thank you I agree all of it but some i dont know but anyway i need to study hard to make sure that no one contradiction will overcome..

it seems that you made some progress in that discussion with the semi-calvinist.
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  #52  
Old 26th September 2010, 06:47 AM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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yes Ron I think he is enlightened by your explanation especially the Council of Orange.

Ron my sister in USA has now the copy of the list of your books she said she will ordering them at amazon and lulu. Their vacation is over they are going home back there tonight. Hopefully by next month I will have the copy in here of the CPDV Holy Bible and The Cathechism.
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  #53  
Old 26th September 2010, 12:46 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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good. thanks for your interest in my work.
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  #54  
Old 1st October 2010, 11:56 PM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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Total depravity is the Calvinist false doctrine that the fall from grace of Adam and Eve caused mankind to be totally corrupted, able to do nothing good, so that free will cannot choose anything that is moral. Calvinists even hold that human nature itself ceased to be made in the image of God due to original sin.

In Catholic teaching, free will, and human nature in general, is weakened and harmed by original sin, but not utterly corrupted. Catholic teaching is that human nature, after the fall, remains good and continues to be an image of God. Thus, even without grace, human nature, being good in itself even after the Fall of Adam and Eve, can do acts that are morally good, but not deserving of eternal reward, without grace.

Romans 3
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one

If Total depravity is not a biblical teaching, can you explain the verses above
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  #55  
Old 1st October 2010, 11:57 PM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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Default Q: calvinist?

If you are saying that "In Catholic teaching, free will, and human nature in general, is weakened and harmed by original sin, but not utterly corrupted. Catholic teaching is that human nature, after the fall, remains good and continues to be an image of God. Thus, even without grace, human nature, being good in itself even after the Fall of Adam and Eve, can do acts that are morally good, but not deserving of eternal reward, without grace"

How then will you reconcile your statements above regarding after the fall, humans were not utterly corrupted and remains supposedly good, with the plain pronouncements from the Holy Scriptures that no one is good and firmly supported by other parallel texts in the Scriptures?

Romans 3:9-10 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. As it is written: “ There is none righteous, no, not one;

Romans 3:18 “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Romans 8:7-8 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins

2 Corinthians 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Therefore the goodness of an act by fallen people that you are talking about, as far as God is concern, are in fact not good at all.
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  #56  
Old 2nd October 2010, 01:41 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Romans 3
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one

If Total depravity is not a biblical teaching, can you explain the verses above

That passage is a quote from the Psalms.

[Psalm 13] (14)
{13:1} Unto the end. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They were corrupted, and they have become abominable in their studies. There is no one who does good; there is not even one.
{13:2} The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, to see if there were any who were considering or seeking God.
{13:3} They have all gone astray; together they have become useless. There is no one who does good; there is not even one.
{13:4} Their throat is an open sepulcher. With their tongues, they have been acting deceitfully; the venom of asps is under their lips. Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.
{13:5} Their feet are swift to shed blood. Grief and unhappiness are in their ways; and the way of peace, they have not known.
{13:6} There is no fear of God before their eyes.
{13:7} Will they never learn: all those who work iniquity, who devour my people like a meal of bread?
{13:8} They have not called upon the Lord. There, they have trembled in fear, where there was no fear.
{13:9} For the Lord is with the just generation. You have confounded the counsel of the needy because the Lord is his hope.
{13:10} Who will grant the salvation of Israel from Zion? When the Lord turns away the captivity of his people, Jacob will exult, and Israel will rejoice.

The passage refers to:
(1) the extent of the sinfulness of the world before Christ. All (the sons of men) were sinners, and although grace was available, many still sinned gravely.

(2) the particularly grave sinfulness of certain persons, all who work iniquity, who do not call upon the Lord. This particular 'all' is not all of humanity, but all who reject the Lord.

The distinction between these two groups proves that total depravity is false. For if all were totally depraved, there would be no distinction. To the contrary, all are sinners, but some sin much more gravely.

Then the last part of the passage refers to the salvation to be offered by Christ, who grants salvation from Zion. And this brings sinners, even grave sinners, to repentance. In the Calvinist view, even the saved are totally depraved; they don't view saving grace as making the human person like Christ; they see grace as good, but human nature as still evil. The saved person, in the Calvinist view is entirely passive, and is essentially unchanged.

The Catholic view is that human nature is good, analogous to bread, and that saving grace and actual grace raise human nature to supernatural goodness, making us like Christ, just as bread is consecrated and becomes Christ.

In the Calvinist view, human nature is evil, like rotten food, and even the saved persons is not essentially changed. Some rotten food is thrown into the garbage (Hell) and other rotten food is saved for no good reason (into Heaven). But there is no fundamental difference between the two.
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  #57  
Old 2nd October 2010, 01:46 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Romans 3:9-10 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. As it is written: “ There is none righteous, no, not one;

Romans 3:18 “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Romans 8:7-8 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins

2 Corinthians 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Therefore the goodness of an act by fallen people that you are talking about, as far as God is concern, are in fact not good at all.

These verses speak of the evil of sin, not human nature. All are sinners, so we lack righteousness. But this does not imply total depravity. And some of those verses refer only to 'all' within certain limits, such as I pointed out in the previous post: all who work iniquity, or all who do not call upon the Lord. Since some do call upon the Lord, and since Scripture says that certain men, such as Abraham, Job, and Daniel, are holy. Then we would misinterpret those select verses, if we did not consider their meaning alongside many other verses.

All are sinners, but all are also human persons made in the image of God. And that is why all sin is hypocrisy. The good human person does what is evil, sinning, and thereby contradicting his own good nature. And that is why persons who lack Christian teaching can still know right from wrong, and thereby be culpable for their sins, because their sins are contrary to their own good nature.
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  #58  
Old 3rd October 2010, 12:08 AM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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Default Ron.what kind of argument is this?

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These verses speak of the evil of sin, not human nature. All are sinners, so we lack righteousness. But this does not imply total depravity. And some of those verses refer only to 'all' within certain limits, such as I pointed out in the previous post: all who work iniquity, or all who do not call upon the Lord. Since some do call upon the Lord, and since Scripture says that certain men, such as Abraham, Job, and Daniel, are holy. Then we would misinterpret those select verses, if we did not consider their meaning alongside many other verses.

All are sinners, but all are also human persons made in the image of God. And that is why all sin is hypocrisy. The good human person does what is evil, sinning, and thereby contradicting his own good nature. And that is why persons who lack Christian teaching can still know right from wrong, and thereby be culpable for their sins, because their sins are contrary to their own good nature.

You make yourself very clear about your personal disbelief and personal rejection of the above verses I shared to you, regarding human's total depravity. There is nothing I believe that we could do, but to just respect your personal decision to be against it. Those are God's words and not ours. We just happened to believe it wholeheartedly, in contrast to your disbelief and also your attempts to give another philosophical meaning about it, to what are clearly revealed by the Word of God. It is supposed to be accepted in faith that we humans indeed are in total depravity and we cannot do anything using our human power to do exactly what is good. And that is, the act of going back to God, an impossibility, unless we receive God's unmerited grace.

For what is the sense of goodness that you are talking about left inside us after the fall of Adam and Eve and are still supposedly in the image of God, but will end up nonetheless in hell. That is a clear self contradiction and a nonsense kind of statement. In fact a meaningless one.
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  #59  
Old 3rd October 2010, 01:15 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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You make yourself very clear about your personal disbelief and personal rejection of the above verses I shared to you, regarding human's total depravity. There is nothing I believe that we could do, but to just respect your personal decision to be against it. Those are God's words and not ours. We just happened to believe it wholeheartedly, in contrast to your disbelief and also your attempts to give another philosophical meaning about it, to what are clearly revealed by the Word of God. It is supposed to be accepted in faith that we humans indeed are in total depravity and we cannot do anything using our human power to do exactly what is good. And that is, the act of going back to God, an impossibility, unless we receive God's unmerited grace.

This view of Scripture is like that of the fundamentalist Protestants, who claim that they are merely explaining what Scripture plainly says. They don't admit any intepretation or possibility of misinterpretation on their part.

These ideas about the goodness of fallen humanity, and the possibility to merit some graces (while other graces are unmerited) has been the understanding and teaching of the Church for many centuries. The opposing idea of total depravity is a heresy, supported by an overly simplistic understanding of Scripture and of sin, grace, and free will.

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Originally Posted by myLivingBread View Post
For what is the sense of goodness that you are talking about left inside us after the fall of Adam and Eve and are still supposedly in the image of God, but will end up nonetheless in hell. That is a clear self contradiction and a nonsense kind of statement. In fact a meaningless one.

Evil is a deprivation of goodness. Pure evil cannot exist because all that God created has a good nature, and because existence itself is good. Pure evil would have to entirely lack any nature and any existence. And so pure evil does not exist. Therefore, the fallen angels and damned souls in Hell cannot be pure evil. Rather, they have a good nature which stands forever as a witness against their own evil choices made by their free will.
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  #60  
Old 5th October 2010, 10:53 PM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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Unconditional election is one of the Calvinist false doctrines on salvation. Here is Jimmy Akin's description of it

Akin: "The doctrine of unconditional election means God does not base his choice (election) of certain individuals on anything other than his own good will. God chooses whomever he pleases and passes over the rest. The ones God chooses will desire to come to him, will accept his offer of salvation, and will do so precisely because he has chosen them."

This description is contrary to Catholic teaching on salvation because there is no place for free will in it. Calvin believed that free will was destroyed by original sin, that human nature is totally depraved, and as a result, he gave no role to free will in salvation. Akin accepts this error by claiming that unconditional election is acceptable as a Catholic theological opinion.

To the contrary, the Catechism teaches that free will is essential in salvation:

Catechism of the Catholic Church: "To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of 'predestination', he includes in it each person's free response to his grace…." (CCC, n. 600).

Calvinism portrays God as the sole determinant of who is saved, and of who is 'passed over', i.e. passively omitted from salvation, supposedly by a mysterious choice of the 'good will' of God.

But Catholicism teaches that God's good will for our salvation hinges on free will. God chose to give us free will and He chooses to save us all -- but only if we choose to cooperate with His grace with true freedom. God could save us all apart from free will, but He humbly chooses to submit Himself to the decisions of our free will, so that we can freely choose to love God and neighbor and be saved, or to reject love and be condemned. Without a true freedom of will, there would be no true love of God and neighbor.

in the calendar and thinking of man, God reacts to the so called 'free' will of his man.

in the calendar of God, there is actually no calendar. there is no element of time. God is who was, and is, and is to come. the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. no yesterday nor tomorrow. for God a thousand days is but a day, says Peter (2 Peter 3:.

as you can see, the bottom line of all the arguments for the so-branded 'Calvinistic' doctrines rests entirely on the character of God. its not whether you think it is right or not or inconvenient to agree with, it is whether you agree that God is God. period.

those who oppose such doctrines have a different version of God, a make believe. their version of God is convenient to man's sense of justice or understanding of free will. for them God is not sovereign, God is not independent, God 'waits' for men to decide therefore is bounded by time. man chooses, God reacts, reqards or punishes. a Hollywood feel-good movie version.

whether youu agree or not, election or the elect of God is already a completed script in God's timeline. we are all actors fulfilling God's purpose and perfect will to completion.

Eph 1:4-----

God did not react when he chose the nation of Israel to be his chosen people, why he chose Abraham instead of others, or why Jesus chose the 12 apostles instead of others. It was all entirely God's prerogative.

You may say a person may choose or reject Christ, true. But is it really random event based solely on man's free will ?

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you
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