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Old 16th July 2006, 07:00 AM
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Mario, Lebanon is the most Catholic country in the middle east and is presently being attacked by Israel, a country which has a long and abysmal human rights record towards its Palestinian Catholic subjects and is condemned for doing so by our Holy Father the Pope.

You can be sure of this. Jews will support the Jewish state when under attack. Muslims will support A Muslim State when under attack.
If we support the Jewish state in lauching this attack, then any notion of Catholic solidarity or notion that we're a family of faith would mean nothing. If our Catholic solidarity as a family is to mean anything it must mean more than a narrow, turgid, introverted devotionialism and so we must lend our full support to the Holy Father and the Vatican. Our late Holy Father John Paul the Great showed us the way in this when He gave his full financial, diplomatic and faith support to the Catholic Solidarity workers monement in Communist Poland. So that whether in opposing the Red Star of Godless Communism or the Blue Star of militant Zionism our clear duty in supporting the Holy Father and our Brothers and Sisters in the faith remains the same.

Why is the U.S. the only country in the world supporting Israel's attack on the Lebanon?? You can be sure of this that if the Jewish lobby in the United Staes were to lend the same weight of support to the prolife movement in the USA it has to the Zionist one the murder of the unborn would cease in six months. This despite all the huge support Catholics and other Christians in the that country has lent to the pro life movement for many, many decades and which has, signally failed.

Bishop Desmond Tutu of South Africa, who was awarded the 1984 Nobel Peace Prize, has candidly identified the reason: "The Israeli government is placed on a pedestal [in the US], and to criticize it is to be immediately dubbed anti-Semitic," he said. "People are scared in this country, to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful -- very powerful."

Today, though barely two percent of the nation's population is Jewish, close to half its billionaires are Jews. The chief executive officers of the three major television networks and the four largest film studios are Jews, as are the owners of the nation's largest newspaper chain and the most influential single newspaper, the New York Times ... The role and influence of Jews in American politics is equally marked.

Jews are only two percent of the nation's population yet comprise eleven percent of what this study defines as the nation's elite. However, Jews constitute more than 25 percent of the elite journalists and publishers, more than 17 percent of the leaders of important voluntary and public interest organizations, and more than 15 percent of the top ranking civil servants.

Stephen Steinlight, former Director of National Affairs of the American Jewish Committee, similarly notes the "disproportionate political power" of Jews, which is "pound for pound the greatest of any ethnic/cultural group in America." He goes on to explain that "Jewish economic influence and power are disproportionately concentrated in Hollywood, television, and in the news industry."

Two well-known Jewish writers, Seymour Lipset and Earl Raab, pointed out in their 1995 book, Jews and the New American Scene:

"During the last three decades Jews [in the United States] have made up 50 percent of the top two hundred intellectuals ... 20 percent of professors at the leading universities ... 40 percent of partners in the leading law firms in New York and Washington ... 59 percent of the directors, writers, and producers of the 50 top-grossing motion pictures from 1965 to 1982, and 58 percent of directors, writers, and producers in two or more primetime television series."

The influence of American Jewry in Washington, notes the Israeli daily Jerusalem Post, is "far disproportionate to the size of the community, Jewish leaders and U.S. official acknowledge. But so is the amount of money they contribute to [election] campaigns." One member of the influential Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations "estimated Jews alone had contributed 50 percent of the funds for [President Bill] Clinton's 1996 re-election campaign."

"It makes no sense at all to try to deny the reality of Jewish power and prominence in popular culture," acknowledges Michael Medved, a well-known Jewish author and film critic. "Any list of the most influential production executives at each of the major movie studios will produce a heavy majority of recognizably Jewish names."

One person who has carefully studied this subject is Jonathan J. Goldberg, now editor of the influential Jewish community weekly 'Forward.' In his 1996 book, Jewish Power, he wrote:

"In a few key sectors of the media, notably among Hollywood studio executives, Jews are so numerically dominant that calling these businesses Jewish-controlled is little more than a statistical observation ... Hollywood at the end of the twentieth century is still an industry with a pronounced ethnic tinge. Virtually all the senior executives at the major studios are Jews. Writers, producers, and to a lesser degree directors are disproportionately Jewish -- one recent study showed the figure as high as 59 percent among top-grossing films."

The combined weight of so many Jews in one of America's most lucrative and important industries gives the Jews of Hollywood a great deal of political power. They are a major source of money for Democratic candidates.

Reflecting their role in the American media, Jews are routinely portrayed as high-minded, altruistic, trustworthy, compassionate, and deserving of sympathy and support. While millions of Americans readily accept such stereotyped imagery, not everyone is impressed.

"I am very angry with some of the Jews," complained actor Marlon Brando during a 1996 interview. "They know perfectly well what their responsibilities are ... Hollywood is run by Jews. It's owned by Jews, and they should have a greater sensitivity about the issue of people who are suffering."
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Old 16th July 2006, 03:16 PM
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"Jews and Christians should accept each other in profound inner reconciliation, neither in disregard of their faith nor in denying it, but out of the depth of faith itself. In their mutual reconciliation they should become a force for peace in and for the world. Through their witness to the one God, who cannot be adored apart from the unity of love of God and neighbor, they should open the door into the world for this God so that his will may be done and so that it may become on earth "as it is in heaven" so that "his kingdom come".
--words of our Holy Father (the pope of peace)
then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
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Old 16th July 2006, 03:18 PM
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Thanks for the link to Saint Charbel!

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Old 16th July 2006, 03:41 PM
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That the Jews are connected with God in a special way and that God does not allow that bond to fail is entirely obvious. We wait for the instant in which Israel will say yes to Christ, but we know that it has a special mission in history now... which is significant for the world.
Pope Benedict XVI

Judaism is not Zionism, nor Zionism Judaism. Many Jews, especially orthodox despise Zionism, just as many Zionists despise the Jewish religion. Zionism of itself is predominantly a secular/ socialist phenomena. Being anti Zionist does not equate with being anti semitic; as many a pious Jewish Rabbi would be quick to explain to you, many of them being rabidly anti Zionist themselves.

Ju·da·ism Pronunciation (jd-zm)
1. The monotheistic religion of the Jews, tracing its origins to Abraham and having its spiritual and ethical principles embodied chiefly in the Hebrew Scriptures and the Talmud.
2. Conformity to the traditional ceremonies and rites of the Jewish religion.
3. The cultural, religious, and social practices and beliefs of the Jews.
4. The Jews considered as a people or community

Zionism is a political movement among Jews (although supported by some non-Jews) which maintains that the Jewish people constitute a nation and are entitled to a national homeland. Formally founded in 1897, Zionism embraced a variety of opinions in its early years on where that homeland might be established. From 1917 it focused on the establishment of a Jewish national homeland or state in Palestine, the location of the ancient Kingdom of Israel. Since 1948, Zionism has been a movement to support the development and defence of the State of Israel, and to encourage Jews to settle there.

It would be out of the question to publish all the utterances of Gedolei Yisroel [Torah authorities] during the last century, the period of the emergence of Zionism on the Jewish horizon, because all the Gedolei Yisroel sternly opposed the movement aimed at undermining the Jewish religion and the Jewish essence

* [The Torah] forbids us to strive for the reunion or possession of the land by any but spiritual means
Rabbi S. R. Hirsch

* Not via our desire did we leave the land of Israel, and not via our power will we come back to the land of Israel.
Rabbi S.D. Schneerson

* [Zionists] want a state in order to make Jews into heretics.
Rabbi C. Soloveichik

* The Zionists have attacked the center point of Judaism.
Rabbi V. SoloveichikWhat the Rabbis said about Zionism in the Previous Generations

Once before the Neila prayer on Yom Kippur Rabbi Avraham Yoshe Freund of Mansod said:

"It is not because they are Zionists that they are evildoers. It is because they are evildoers that they are Zionists."

Rabbi Aharon Roth once said:

"It is a miracle that these evildoers don't command everyone to put on tefillin. It is possible that were they to do it, G-d forbid, it may be forbidden to put them on."

The Chazon Ish once said:

"If it is hard to understand the whole matter of the Golden Calf, by seeing the matter of the State, one can understand it. The matter of the State is similar to the Golden Calf"

Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman once said:

"It is certain as the sun shines that the Land will vomit the Zionists out, because the Land is the Palace of the King....I don't say this either to curse or to bless, but because these are things which are written in the Torah and which will take place."

Rabbi Chaim Soloveitchik once said:

"The Zionists aren't taking Jews away from Judaism in order to have a State, THEY NEED A STATE IN ORDER TO TAKE JEWS AWAY FROM JUDAISM"

Rabbi Yechezkel Shraga Halberstam once said: "When a Jew recites 'Hear O Israel, the Lord your G-d, the Lord is One' he should have in mind rejecting all idolatry in the world, including Zionism, which is also idolatry."

Rabbi Yissachar Dov of Belz once said: " There could be, before the arrival of Mashiach, that the Satan should succeed, and the evildoers should get a State in the Land of Israel. Their state would be a big danger for every Jew in material and spiritual matters."

The Chafetz Chaim, Rabbi Israel Meir Hakohen once said: "In my opinion it is clear that the Zionists are from the offspring of AMALEK."

Rabbi Yitzchak Zev Soloveitchik (Reb Velvel) once said:

"How can the little rabbis and heads of yeshivas take upon themselves the determination of things dealing with life and death? It is obvious that the partition will bring with it the anger and hostility of the Arabs and other nations of the world. This whole thing touches on the shedding of blood. HOW DO THEY HAVE THE ARROGANCE TO MAKE JUDGEMENTS DEALING WITH LIFE AND DEATH?

He also said: ]

"The Agudah is nothing, just money." Rabbi Moshe Leib Diskin once said: "The rabbis of the generation should gather together and issue a writ of excommunication against the Zionists and eject them from the Jewish People, and make decrees against their bread and wine, and to forbid marrying with them, JUST LIKE OUR SAGES DID WITH THE SAMARITANS."

Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Eherenreich once said:

"The Zionists brought us to the Holocaust. It is well known that it was possible to redeem Jews from the Nazis with money, and save many hundreds of thousands of Jews in Hungary from the fire. THE ZIONIST LEADERS WHO NOW SIT IN GOVERNMENT PREVENTED IT!"

Rabbi Shaul Brach of Kashoa once said:

"Before thinking up the idea of Zionism, Herzl wanted all Jews to convert to Christianity. When he was laughed at, he developed the second idea which was able to have more effect, since thousands of Jews began to believe they could be Jews without the Torah of Judaism."

"I am also surprised at the leaders of the Agudah who want thousands of Jews to move to Eretz Israel. How can they ignore the welfare of their children, since there is no other place on earth where there is so much heresy and sectarianism as in the Holy Land in our day."
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Old 17th July 2006, 06:20 AM
Jose Jose is offline
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Default Desmond Tutu

Desmond has no credibility, he is a nut. He has embraced Mugabe of Rhodesia and Khadafy of Libya, a communist in clerics clothes. For him to critisize Israel is propaganda pure and simple.
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Old 17th July 2006, 11:45 AM
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I'm amazed by the lack of coherent, logical argument on behalf of the Israeli State. In fact there's been no real argument at all. I'm afraid calling someone a 'nut' and walking away does not qualify for open dialogue and debate. Were name calling starts free discussion ends.

Now the question for a patriotic American in all this is simple. Does our support for Israel benefit or harm the United States, what does a cost/ benefit analysis show?

Lets take the costs:

1 Three billion dollars every year, to a very prosperous state up their in the economic league with South Krea.

2. Massive diplomatic and prestige harm in allying herself with what is effectively a pariah state.

3. America being made effectively the prime target for world terrorism. Its very doubtful for instance that 9/11 or the War in Iraq would have happened without America's support for Israel.

4. The loathing and hate of the entire Islamic wotld which America crucially relires on for her energy supplis.

5. Spiralling and gigantic costs the USA have to make in international and domestic security.

6. Close and unbreakable ties to a country that exists in a constant state of declared and undeclared war.

7. Support in the UN for a power that has repeatedly ignored reosultions against their Nuclear weapons and repeated human rights violations.

Now what does America get paid back in return.

1 Israeli intelligence agencies have repeatedly been discovered operating in the USA and throughout the world in a manner harmful to her interests.

2 Israeli military power is useless to America for instance in the invasions of Kuwait and Iraq the USA had to forgo Israeli assistance since Jerusalems help wouyld have totaaly alienated Arab interests and assistance which were crucial to US military sucess.

3. Israeli intelligence which could only be marginally helpful in that it would be clearly slewed to Israeli interests.

In other words the USA has nothing at all to fgain and everything to loose by being allied to what as one French Ambassoder called 'this shitty little country.'

The reason why the USA backs Israel not in conformity to the national interest but because American Jewry says they must. Also because the Jewish controlled media have brainwashed people like yourself into somehow believed its good, right and necessary, when quite obviously it is not.

"Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah," says Zechariah 12:2-3."It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it."
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Old 17th July 2006, 01:24 PM
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Thank you for your very informative posting on the Israeli question. This is a very complex problem and balance seems to go out the window when ever the rights or wrongs of the situation are discussed. I have noticed many Evangelical Christians will back israel irrespective of what they do. This is probably because they believe israel is justified completely by the fact of being the chosen people. In fact many Evangilists are trying to return to the Jewish faith and they link up to the Jewish festivals. Jesus said you cannot put new wine in old wineskins.
At the end of the day it is unjust to go into a country and start bombing and kill civilians because 2 soldiers were kidnapped. One has to wonder what strategy is going on in the background.
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Old 17th July 2006, 01:53 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,570

I'd like to balance out this discussion by giving some points in favor of military action by Israel:

1. Hesbollah has thousands of rockets which they can and have used to target populations centers in Israel, indiscriminately killing innocent civilians in Israel.

2. Their latest rockets can reach further than ever before, putting larger cities within range of these attacks.

3. They did more than kidnap 2 soldiers, they've killed several other soldiers, within the borders of Israel, and they have killed innocent civilians deliberately, again within the borders of Israel.

4. Israel's attacks, unlike those of its enemies, are not indiscriminate attacks on civilians.

So, I generally support Israel's right to defend itself; although I do not judge and approve or disapprove of each military action that it takes in self defense.

Ron Conte
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
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Old 17th July 2006, 02:48 PM
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Hesbollah may have thousand of rockets but Hesbollah is not the government of lebanon. We had a situation of IRA having bases in the South of Ireland during the northern ireland troubles over the past 30 years. This certainly would not have been justification for the British Government to launch attacks on the South of Ireland. Taking a body count of israeli deaths Vs Lebanese deaths is not a justification. There has to be dialogue between countries.
The justification of thousands of rockets held by Hesbollah is the same justification used , weapons of mass destruction, to go into Iraq. Pope John paul 11 appealed to Allied leaders not to go into Iraq. He was ignored. The same is happening now to pope Benedicts appeal. I think all Catholics should support the Pope's strategy. I originally supported the Allied leaders giung into iraq because I believed the justification of WMD but this proved to be incorrect.
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Old 17th July 2006, 05:38 PM
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Default Self-Defense

I agree with Ron. Unfortunately for the Lebanese, they have condoned Hezbollah to attack Israel from within their borders. If you allow somebody to do evil without attempting to stop it would seem to make you complicit as well.

WWII was a terrible time. But the German people put Hitler in power. He did not take it by force, he took it within the confines of the law, with the consent of the German people via their own representatives. The German people's allowance of Hitler resulted in the death of millions.

Israel has indeed allowed quite a bit, now they are trying to force the Lebanese to take control of their land and stop the terrorists.

If the Lebanese do not want to, or cannot, they should cede the land to Hezbollah and evacuate, and allow Israel to conduct a Just War, which it would seem to be if only Israel and the terrorist were involved.
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