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  #11  
Old 20th March 2007, 03:01 PM
MARIAN
 
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Padraig & Nathan thanks for bringing some balance to this discussion. I look at these threads from time to time but feel unqualified to take on these issues where people are very belligerent. I feel also that this attitude may be linked to the fact that American soldiers and citizens are in Iraq and people feel they must take on these attitudes to support them.
I do know this we must continue to pray for peace and trust that God will work it out in the end if we are faithful.
Mary
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  #12  
Old 20th March 2007, 04:43 PM
JonDavid JonDavid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARIAN View Post
Padraig & Nathan thanks for bringing some balance to this discussion. I look at these threads from time to time but feel unqualified to take on these issues where people are very belligerent. I feel also that this attitude may be linked to the fact that American soldiers and citizens are in Iraq and people feel they must take on these attitudes to support them.
I do know this we must continue to pray for peace and trust that God will work it out in the end if we are faithful.
Mary


It is better to die in battle then to live on ones knees as a slave. Which one would you choose??? Jesus would not want you or me to be a doormat. As for praying for Peace & victory (fight if necessary) over evil such as in Iran, Islamic Facism yes, we should Howvever, If Ron is correct, the West will be conquered by the modern day Persians & the West will enter a New Dark age.
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  #13  
Old 20th March 2007, 05:34 PM
MARIAN
 
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One could say that Jesus was a doormat if you were to look at him from the worldly viewpoint. He asked us to love in a radical way by repaying hatred with love. That was his challenging message. Our journey here is short and we must set our hearts on the world to come which is our everlasting home. Prayer helps us to achieve this. I agree it is an enormous challenge.
Mary
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  #14  
Old 20th March 2007, 06:19 PM
JonDavid JonDavid is offline
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Default No, Jesus was no doormat, far from it.

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Originally Posted by MARIAN View Post
One could say that Jesus was a doormat if you were to look at him from the worldly viewpoint. He asked us to love in a radical way by repaying hatred with love. That was his challenging message. Our journey here is short and we must set our hearts on the world to come which is our everlasting home. Prayer helps us to achieve this. I agree it is an enormous challenge.
Mary



No, Jesus was no doormat, far from it. If He were he would have continued with the norm or lead the Jews as they viewed what the Messiah would do to the Romans. No, Jesus came to earth to do the will of The Father. Remember when He said that The Father would send Legions of Angels to protect Him if He asked Him, but Jesus said no, I come here to do My Fathers will meaning to die on the Cross as a sacrifice & to take on all the sins of the world. You see & you donít see it or want to, is that your mindset allowed over 6 million Jews to be murder, slaughtered by the Nazis & the Christians would have BEEN next if Hitler had won.
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  #15  
Old 20th March 2007, 06:43 PM
Padraig
 
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Jesus, the Lamb of God, died on the Cross with his poor mother Mary watching without either raising a finger to protect themselves. All of the first Apostles died violently, with the exception of Saint John who was boiled in oil, but lived, again without raising a finger to protect themselves.

Pretty well most of the early Christians died violently including most of the Early Church, men, women and children, some of them very little, again without raising a finger in their own defense.

Were they doormats?? It would be insulting to say so.

Effectively our modern culture extols and praises violence and justifies it. Its very hard, its always been very hard for the Christian to go against the grain and preach peace. But, really the Gospel is just that a message of peace and Christ Himself is the King of Peace.

If Jesus had wanted it any other way He could very easily have told us so. He never did.

Its very easy to talk about peace and forgiveness when the going is good; very difficult when the horns of war start to sound. But really if we can only forgive when there is nothing to forgive, if we can only preach peace in times of peace and if we can only love those who return our love, what use is it?

Doormats????????


Last edited by Padraig : 20th March 2007 at 06:46 PM.
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  #16  
Old 20th March 2007, 07:25 PM
JonDavid JonDavid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Padraig View Post
Jesus, the Lamb of God, died on the Cross with his poor mother Mary watching without either raising a finger to protect themselves. All of the first Apostles died violently, with the exception of Saint John who was boiled in oil, but lived, again without raising a finger to protect themselves.

Pretty well most of the early Christians died violently including most of the Early Church, men, women and children, some of them very little, again without raising a finger in their own defense.

Were they doormats?? It would be insulting to say so.

Effectively our modern culture extols and praises violence and justifies it. Its very hard, its always been very hard for the Christian to go against the grain and preach peace. But, really the Gospel is just that a message of peace and Christ Himself is the King of Peace.

If Jesus had wanted it any other way He could very easily have told us so. He never did.

Its very easy to talk about peace and forgiveness when the going is good; very difficult when the horns of war start to sound. But really if we can only forgive when there is nothing to forgive, if we can only preach peace in times of peace and if we can only love those who return our love, what use is it?

Doormats????????


You say "Effectively our modern culture extols and praises violence and justifies it. Its very hard, its always been very hard for the Christian to go against the grain and preach peace. But, really the Gospel is just that a message of peace and Christ Himself is the King of Peace."

There is a big difference from you above quote regarding violence & DEFENDING FREEDOM. Defending freedom is not praises violence and justifing it. If so, then your thinking would have allowed Hitler to Win WWII. Also, I don't think God would take kindly to people who allow (Sin of Ommission) evil to prevail without a good fight.

Finally, may God give me the strength to fight like a "Spartan" if called upon to!!!!




BY THE WAY I THINK YOU OUR A LOVING, GOOD, DEVOTE CATHOLIC BUT A LITTLE CONFUSED ABOUT MORAL PARAMETERS.

Last edited by JonDavid : 20th March 2007 at 07:29 PM.
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  #17  
Old 20th March 2007, 08:19 PM
Padraig
 
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There's always a good reason for doing a bad thing and a bad reason for doing a good one.

The idea of 'Freedom' to which you refer is a political rather than a Spiritual one. So, too, the idea that you must kill other people so that you must stay 'Free'.

However, if you can indicate were, in the Gospels, we are exhorted to kill people in order to stay 'free ' I will, of course, reconsider.

One bit of scripture springs to mind. Saint Paul sends Onesimus, a slave, back to Philemon his former owner with an injunction for Philemon to be kind to him. Taking your point that people should kill those who threaten their freedom, Onesimus would have then been justified in killing both Saint Paul and Philemon?? Also if you are right, Saint Paul was very, very wrong in counselling slaves to be obedient to their masters. He should, surely, have been counselling them to be killing their masters in defense of their freedom?

Also since many if not most of the early Christians , particularly in Rome were slaves Saints Peter and Paul should, surely, by your lights, have led these slaves in an armed revolt against their slave masters in defense of their freedom, rather than filling their heads with a lot of pious nonsense about love and forgiveness and turning them all into 'doormats'?

Paul's Letter to Philemon

1:1 Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, to Philemon, our beloved fellow worker, 1:2 to the beloved Apphia, to Archippus, our fellow soldier, and to the assembly in your house: 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1:4 I thank my God always, making mention of you in my prayers, 1:5 hearing of your love, and of the faith which you have toward the Lord Jesus, and toward all the saints; 1:6 that the fellowship of your faith may become effective, in the knowledge of every good thing which is in us in Christ Jesus. 1:7 For we have much joy and comfort in your love, because the hearts of the saints have been refreshed through you, brother.

1:8 Therefore, though I have all boldness in Christ to command you that which is appropriate, 1:9 yet for love’s sake I rather beg, being such a one as Paul, the aged, but also a prisoner of Jesus Christ. 1:10 I beg you for my child, whom I have become the father of in my chains, Onesimus, 1:11 who once was useless to you, but now is useful to you and to me. 1:12 I am sending him back. Therefore receive him, that is, my own heart, 1:13 whom I desired to keep with me, that on your behalf he might serve me in my chains for the Good News. 1:14 But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will. 1:15 For perhaps he was therefore separated from you for a while, that you would have him forever, 1:16 no longer as a slave, but more than a slave, a beloved brother, especially to me, but how much rather to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord.

1:17 If then you count me a partner, receive him as you would receive me. 1:18 But if he has wronged you at all, or owes you anything, put that to my account. 1:19 I, Paul, write this with my own hand: I will repay it (not to mention to you that you owe to me even your own self besides). 1:20 Yes, brother, let me have joy from you in the Lord. Refresh my heart in the Lord. 1:21 Having confidence in your obedience, I write to you, knowing that you will do even beyond what I say.

1:22 Also, prepare a guest room for me, for I hope that through your prayers I will be restored to you.

1:23 Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus, greets you, 1:24 as do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, and Luke, my fellow workers. 1:25 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.

Last edited by Padraig : 20th March 2007 at 08:47 PM.
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  #18  
Old 20th March 2007, 08:54 PM
JonDavid JonDavid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Padraig View Post
There's always a good reason for doing a bad thing and a bad reason for doing a good one.

The idea of 'Freedom' to which you refer is a political rather than a Spiritual one. So, too, the idea that you must kill other people so that you must stay 'Free'.

However, if you can indicate were, in the Gospels, we are exhorted to kill people in order to stay 'free ' I will, of course, reconsider.

One bit of scripture springs to mind. Saint Paul sends Onesimus, a slave, back to Philemon his former owner with an injunction for Philemon to be kind to him. Taking your point that people should kill those who threaten their freedom, Onesimus would have then been justified in killing both Saint Paul and Philemon?? Also if you are right, Saint Paul was very, very wrong in counselling slaves to be obedient to their masters. He should, surely, have been counselling them to be killing their masters in defense of their freedom?

Also since many if not most of the early Christians , particularly in Rome were slaves Saints Peter and Paul should, surely, by your lights, have led these slaves in an armed revolt against their slave masters in defense of their freedom, rather than filling their heads with a lot of pious nonsense about love and forgiveness and turning them all into 'doormats'?

Paul's Letter to Philemon

1:1 Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, to Philemon, our beloved fellow worker, 1:2 to the beloved Apphia, to Archippus, our fellow soldier, and to the assembly in your house: 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1:4 I thank my God always, making mention of you in my prayers, 1:5 hearing of your love, and of the faith which you have toward the Lord Jesus, and toward all the saints; 1:6 that the fellowship of your faith may become effective, in the knowledge of every good thing which is in us in Christ Jesus. 1:7 For we have much joy and comfort in your love, because the hearts of the saints have been refreshed through you, brother.

1:8 Therefore, though I have all boldness in Christ to command you that which is appropriate, 1:9 yet for loveís sake I rather beg, being such a one as Paul, the aged, but also a prisoner of Jesus Christ. 1:10 I beg you for my child, whom I have become the father of in my chains, Onesimus, 1:11 who once was useless to you, but now is useful to you and to me. 1:12 I am sending him back. Therefore receive him, that is, my own heart, 1:13 whom I desired to keep with me, that on your behalf he might serve me in my chains for the Good News. 1:14 But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will. 1:15 For perhaps he was therefore separated from you for a while, that you would have him forever, 1:16 no longer as a slave, but more than a slave, a beloved brother, especially to me, but how much rather to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord.

1:17 If then you count me a partner, receive him as you would receive me. 1:18 But if he has wronged you at all, or owes you anything, put that to my account. 1:19 I, Paul, write this with my own hand: I will repay it (not to mention to you that you owe to me even your own self besides). 1:20 Yes, brother, let me have joy from you in the Lord. Refresh my heart in the Lord. 1:21 Having confidence in your obedience, I write to you, knowing that you will do even beyond what I say.

1:22 Also, prepare a guest room for me, for I hope that through your prayers I will be restored to you.

1:23 Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus, greets you, 1:24 as do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, and Luke, my fellow workers. 1:25 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.



You quote above "There's always a good reason for doing a bad thing and a bad reason for doing a good one.

The idea of 'Freedom' to which you refer is a political rather than a Spiritual one. So, too, the idea that you must kill other people so that you must stay 'Free'.

However, if you can indicate were, in the Gospels, we are exhorted to kill people in order to stay 'free ' I will, of course, reconsider."



Letís say that instead of England & Ireland fighting Hitler they surrendered. Hitler won WWII. Both England & Ireland are transformed into Fascist states. Your bio states that you were born in 1955. Letís say at birth the Nazis took you from your family (reason that they are devoting Catholics) & placed you in an SS school. Do you think you would be a Catholic today??? Nope. You would most likely be a faithful party member.




Again fighting for "FREEDOM" is not evil. "FREEDOM" as I have been posting comes from God.
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  #19  
Old 20th March 2007, 09:08 PM
Padraig
 
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In Ireland it was never the Germans that kept us unfree, it was the English. They still do occupy our country. Many Irish people believe that it would be right to kill them in order to get them out of our country. As, indeed we have been killing them and they us for centuries.

But the idea of killing English people in order for us to get our 'freedom' is not to my mind scriptural. Nor loving. Nor forgiving . Nor right. If God wants us, in this political sense to be 'free' then he will cast of our chains and make us free. I trust Him, He knows what He is doing. He doesn't need me going out with a gun doing his work for him.

I do, indeed, pray that one day Ireland will be free from foreign rule. But I'm not going to go round killing folk to make it so. That's the way Jesus wants it and I'm happy enough to do what He tells me, to love my enemies and to do good to those who hate me.

Killing for 'freedom' just doesn't appeal, I don't care if they are Germans, Russians, Chinese or Americans, they're all my brothers and I love them.

Last edited by Padraig : 20th March 2007 at 09:17 PM.
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  #20  
Old 20th March 2007, 09:22 PM
JonDavid JonDavid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Padraig View Post
In Ireland it was never the Germans that kept us unfree, it was the English. They still do occupy our country. Many Irish people believe that it would be right to kill them in order to get them out of our country. As, indeed we have been killing them and they us for centuries.

But the idea of killing English people in order for us to get our 'freedom' is not to my mind scriptural. Nor loving. Nor forgiving . Nor right. If God wants us, in this political sense to be 'free' then he will cast of our chains and make us free. I trust Him, He knows what He is doing. He doesn't need me going out with a gun doing his work for him.


You changed the subject so you would not have to answer my question.The reason that the Nazis did not enslave you & you have the "FRREDOM" concept that I have posted was because both British & Irish soldiers fought & died fighting Hitler's legions.


The "FREEDOM" that I am advocating is not the freedom that those who want to kill the English. You know that. The English at least of today do not want to exterminate, enslave the IRISH, Scottish, Welsh or any other people. You also know that. Its the Mullahs of Iran & the Islamic Facists as Ron has pointed who want to.

Last edited by JonDavid : 20th March 2007 at 09:30 PM.
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