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  #21  
Old 20th March 2007, 09:33 PM
Padraig
 
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Ever since I was quite young folks have been trying one way or another to kill me, on account of the fact I'm Irish and a Catholic. Nothing , I know would make many of my enemies happier than to see every last Irish person dead. I have been beaten and tortured on several occasions and imprisoned has have several members of my family.

I know about war, we had 30 years of it non stop here. I love my enemies, I forgive them with all my heart, hate me for being Irish and being a Catholic as they will. I do not rely on the gun to defend me I rely on God. He's never let me down in the past, I don't suppose He will now. But if I live, I live for Christ and if I die I pass into His hands.

I don't have to picture in my mind what I would do if the Nazis, or Muslims beat, me, imprisoned me, tortured me, tried to kill me. I don't have to envision it because I already bear on my own body, my heart, my mind, my soul, the wounds of such treatment.

Look at the Cross. Its the craziest thing you ever saw. But the wisest, too.

Last edited by Padraig : 20th March 2007 at 09:38 PM.
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  #22  
Old 20th March 2007, 11:29 PM
JonDavid JonDavid is offline
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Join Date: May 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Padraig View Post
Ever since I was quite young folks have been trying one way or another to kill me, on account of the fact I'm Irish and a Catholic. Nothing , I know would make many of my enemies happier than to see every last Irish person dead. I have been beaten and tortured on several occasions and imprisoned has have several members of my family.

I know about war, we had 30 years of it non stop here. I love my enemies, I forgive them with all my heart, hate me for being Irish and being a Catholic as they will. I do not rely on the gun to defend me I rely on God. He's never let me down in the past, I don't suppose He will now. But if I live, I live for Christ and if I die I pass into His hands.

I don't have to picture in my mind what I would do if the Nazis, or Muslims beat, me, imprisoned me, tortured me, tried to kill me. I don't have to envision it because I already bear on my own body, my heart, my mind, my soul, the wounds of such treatment.

Look at the Cross. Its the craziest thing you ever saw. But the wisest, too.



I am sorry to hear your pain & will pray for you & offer up the Holy Eucharist in your name when I go to Mass. You are right not repay their evil & hate with the same evil & hate. They partly scapegoat you for their own failings in life & the rest is hate festering over generations of tribal & religious warfare. How sad. Hopefully Ron is correct when the Roman Catholic Church reunites & this hopefully will all come to an end. Those people who do that to you & fail to repent sincerely will not be too happy when they face Jesus on their particular judgment & on the general judgment day.
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  #23  
Old 21st March 2007, 12:31 AM
Hope
 
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[i]There is a time to be born and a time to die. A time to plant and a time to pluck up that which is planted. A time to kill, and a time to heal. A time to destroy, and a time to build. A time to weep, and a time to laugh. A time to mourn, and a time to dance . . . A time to keep silence and a time to speak. A time of love, and a time of hatred. A time of war, and a time of peace . . . (Ecclesiastes, Chapter 3)[/I]

I don't know if this is a time to fight or not, but I do know that there is a time and place for it. A review of a few pivotal points in history reveals that there have been times when God Himself leads armies into battle. Three examples came to my mind, but there are many more.

1) Constantine at the Bridge of Milvian
2) The Christians vs. the Muslims at the Battle of Lepanto
3) Joan of Arc leading the French into numerous battles

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

1) Constantine at the Bridge of Milvian

Quote:
www.ebroadcast.com.au/lookup/encyclopedia/ba/Battle_of_Milvian_Bridge.html -

The Battle of Milvian Bridge is one of the seminal events in western history. With this victory, Constantine became the undisputed Western Roman Emperor and laid the foundations for Christianity to emerge as the dominant religion of the Empore.

Milvian Bridge was a culmination of a a 6 years struggle for control of the Western Roman Empire Between Constatine and Maxentius. In AD 312 Clonstantine invaded northern Italy, and stood less than 10 miles from Rome when Maxentius cjpse tp ,ale jos stamd om frpmt pf the <o;voam Brodge. Holding it was crucial if Maxentius was to keep his rival out of Ropme, where the Roman Sentate would suppoert whoever held the city.

Constantine, was outnumbered four to one and victory was far from certain.

Legend has it, that before the decisive battle of Milvian Bridge, Constantine had a vision in which a flaming cross appeared in the sky with an inscription over it reading in Latin, "In Hoc Signo Vinces" - In This Sign Conquer!"

He dedicated the battle to the Christian God (whose sign he believed he was shown) and upon victory became supreme ruler in the Western Roman Empire.

The next day’s battle was a resounding victory for Constantine. Maxentius’ retreating troops were hummed in by the bridge. A pontoon bridge was hurriedly set up to aid the retreat. However, the weight of the men and horses resulted in the bridge’s collapse and Maxentius himself was drowned in the river.

2) The Christians vs. the Muslims at the Battle of Lepanto


Quote:
On October 7, 1571 Pope Pius V, on the anniversary of the naval victory won by the Christian fleet at Lepanto against the Muslim Ottoman Turks, established the Feast day of Our Lady of the Holy Rosary.

"http://www.catholicradiodramas.com/Articles/the_battle_of_lepanto.htm"]ff]-
excerpt:

In 1571 Turkish Muslims amassed a huge naval fleet of galley ships in the Bay of Lepanto off the coast of Cyprus in an attempt to control the Mediterranean Sea, destroy the Christian fleet and invade the whole of Europe. Don Juan of Austria, the exiled illegitimate son of the king of Spain found himself selected as commander-in-chief of the outnumbered Christian fleet in what history would record as the bloodiest deck-to-deck sea battle in naval history.

Pope St. Pius V, a former Dominican monk, strove to unite the naval forces of Venice, Spain and the Holy See to meet the Muslim threat and entrusted the Christian fleet to the protection of the Blessed Virgin Mary. The pope sent his blessing to the fleet commander, Don John of Austria, recommending him to leave behind all soldiers of evil life, and promising him the victory if he did so. Realizing the importance of the impending battle, the pope ordered public prayers, and increased his own supplications to heaven and led the people of Rome in vigils and processions from dawn to dusk as they prayed the rosary to Our Lady of Victory.

The rosary became the spiritual weapon of the Christians as thousands joined together in prayer on the day of the Battle of Lepanto, October 7, 1571. That night while meeting with the cardinals, he suddenly stopped and opened the window and looking at the sky, he cried out, "A truce to business; our great task at present is to thank God for the victory which he has just given the Christian army". He burst into tears over the victory which dealt the Muslim power a blow from which it never fully recovered. The decisive victory in the Bay of Lepanto destroyed all but a third of the enemy fleet and drove-off those that survived the conflict.
Pope Pius V established October 7 as a feast day of Our Lady of Victory in honor of the Blessed Virgin’s assistance in securing the victory, freeing some twelve thousand Christian galley slaves and securing the safety of Europe. In memory of this triumph he instituted the first Sunday of October the feast of the Rosary and added to the Litany of Loreto the supplication "Help of Christians". He was hoping to put an end to the power of Islam by forming a general alliance between the Italian cities and those of Poland, France, and all of Christian Europe.
Two years later Pope Gregory XIII changed the name of the feast day to Our Lady of the Rosary because it was through the praying of the Rosary that the battle had been won. October became the month of the Most Holy Rosary in the Church’s calendar. Pope Leo XIII added the invocation "Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, pray for us" to the Litany of Loreto. Below, from various historical sources is the account of the battle.

The Rosary is one of the best forms of prayer . Mary promised to Christians who faithfully pray the rosary that it is a powerful armor against hell and it will destroy vice, decrease sin and defeat heresies. It will cause virtue and good work to flourish; and it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God. The faithful children of the rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in heaven. You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the rosary.


3) Joan of Arc leading the French into numerous battles

Quote:
www.stjoan-center.com/military/stephenr.html

From the moment she first rode onto a battlefield, Joan went far beyond being merely the tireless good conscience of the army. From the moment she first laid eyes on her country’s English enemies, she aroused the will of her soldiers to fight. Joan was a fine and forceful speaker but her ability to inspire the French soldiers stemmed from her leading them into battle in the most literal sense possible. She was in the front rank of every assault that she ordered to be launched. The fighting men who knew her testified to this repeatedly. D’Aulon recounted that at the battle fought outside the English fort of the Augustins, near Orléans, the French were withdrawing unmolested back to Orléans when the English suddenly appeared to attempt a surprise attack on the rear of the French column. Joan arrived on the scene just at that moment, accompanied by the French mercenary captain La Hire. Both of them were on horseback, armed with lances. Joan, with only La Hire at her side, immediately and impetuously leveled her lance and charged headlong at the English. D’Aulon said that she and La Hire struck the first blows at the enemy. The French knights and common soldiers, stung to action by Joan’s example, turned about and swept the English from the field. They went on to storm the Augustins that day, giving Joan another victory.13 (Sadly for historians, La Hire died before Joan’s retrial began. His testimony would have been invaluable.)14
D’Alençon testified that during the assault on the walled town of Jargeau, Joan was one of the first to mount a scaling ladder set against the wall, shouting encouragement to her men as she did so. During earlier fighting in the outskirts of Jargeau, said d’Alençon, the French were being pushed back until Joan rode up, brandishing her banner, and led the men forward to successfully renew the attack.15 Joan herself stated at her trial for heresy that she was the first to set a scaling ladder against the wall of the English fort of the Tourelles, outside of Orléans.16 Even Georges Chastellain, a chronicler of the Burgundians, the French faction allied to the English who fought against Joan, was moved to praise her courage and personal example. During the hasty French retreat from a Burgundian ambush outside of Compiègne, Joan, in the last moments before she was taken prisoner, stayed behind with the rear guard so that her men could make good their escape. Chastellain recorded that she, "passing the nature of women, took all the brunt, and took great pains to save her company, remaining behind as captain and bravest of her troop.,,17 Within minutes, Joan was bodily pulled off her horse by swarming Burgundian soldiers. It is remarkable that the chronicler of her foes would accord her such honor in his account of her last battle.
Even if Joan’s military role was nothing more than that of a "cheerleader" she was a cheerleader of superb tenacity and fortitude. As overlapping testimonies by Dunois, d’Aulon, de Coutes, and Pasquerel relate, she was shot through her shoulder by an English arrow at the Tourelles outside Orléans.18 D’Alençon described how she was hit on her helmet by a thrown stone at Jargeau.19 D’Alençon’s personal chronicler, Perceval de Cagny, recorded that she was shot through her thigh by another arrow at Paris.20 In every case, she had her wounds treated in rudimentary fashion and returned to battle with greater ardor than ever, within a few hours if not immediately. At the Tourelles the French became disheartened and the English emboldened when they saw Joan, conspicuous with her plain but shining armor and large banner, hit with the arrow and evacuated from the field. But when both sides saw Joan return to the front ranks a short time later with her wound stanched, waving her banner with her good arm and shouting for one more effort, the morale of the French soared while that of the English plummeted. Dunois testified that the moment she returned to the fight "the English trembled with terror; and the King’s men regained their courage."21 De Coutes said that the English "were terrified... In that last attack there was no defense put up by the English side."22
Intangible moral factors are of consummate importance on the field of battle. The soldiers’ will to fight, or the lack of it, often means more than numbers, weapons technology, or tactics in determining the outcome. Joan’s moral impact in favor of the French and against the English was immediate and blatant. Her effect on the soldiers who could see her or hear her was obvious.
Equally obvious and equally important was Joan’s moral impact on the French people of all social classes and both sexes. Wittingly or unwittingly, she helped to create a French national consciousness that had never existed before. To her own discomfort, during her lifetime and at the same time as her military victories, she became the center of a personality cult that embraced all France.
Joan was a low-born peasant

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

IMO, Sometimes good men and women are called to die at the hands of their enemies as Christ died on the cross. Sometimes good men and women are called to defeat their enemies as Christ did on the cross.
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  #24  
Old 21st March 2007, 03:45 AM
Mario
 
Posts: n/a
Wink Joan is the key!

Reviewing the hot debate as it has spread over several threads the last few days has shown me just how finite is my mind, and how fragile my understanding. So often I construct what appears to be a coherent, unified worldview and then I log onto CP where you folks torpedo (I'm non-violent most of the time) my convincing construct with an impassioned discourse I have yet to consider.

Ah, but then Hope comes to my rescue by mentioning one of my favorite friends, Joan of Arc. You see Joan was a simple, yet sincere Catholic peasant girl, who was 16 when her voices began speaking to her of a mission from God. The mission was simple: become the youngest commander-in-chief of all history (female to boot) and uproot the 93-year-old dominance that England held over what little was then left of France. Oh, and by the way, this role reversal was to be accomplished in less than 6 months.

It appears that God chose to accomplish this by:

1) raising up a girl with no guile to embarass us men
2) bringing the sacraments into the midst of an unruly, sinful army camp
3) inspiring this uneducated lass with uncanny, military strategy
4) using the sword in reversing the outcome of a prolonged, bloody conflict that was about to end of its own accord.

God took the side of France to preserve her? I don't know why!

God did not forsake bloodshed to achieve his goal. I don't know why!

God allowed the King, enthroned through the obedience of this peasant subject, to discard the conventions of war and refuse to save the captured heroine by ransom. I don't know why!

There are a lot of things I do not comprehend!!!


Pr 21:2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the heart.

God says: 1Cor 1:19 I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will thwart.

1 Cor 1:25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stonger than men.

LOL!

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!

Last edited by Mario : 21st March 2007 at 03:55 AM.
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  #25  
Old 21st March 2007, 07:51 AM
Padraig
 
Posts: n/a
Wink

As Mario says, it is an interesting debate and on a topic that has fascinated me since I was very young.

There are no simple 'yes' or 'no' answers to the use of force in war, or outside it for that matter. Certainly in this the Catholic Church in this is like a mother with a very large family, some of whom are pulled one way and some another. In reading the letter from the American Bishops on this who spoke of a 'fruitful' tension on this issue, which I think is very wise. None of us has all the answers. None of this can say, 'this and and this and this.

I think we have to be like Our Blessed Lady, who scripture says went away and 'stored all these things in our hearts'. Thus producing in ourselves the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

I myself am not a pacifist. I wish I had the courage to be one. I live in a very rough area were there are many break ins. I have a very large German Shepherd dog, 'Bandit'. If some druggie broke into my place they would go out the window a lot quicker thatn they went in. Not that I have much worth stealing its just me and the dog have a bad Irish temper and a strict sense of right and wrong. I wish in this way I could maybe be a bit kinder and more loving, but, (sigh) I'm not really able to be that way, its just not in me.

As for the Church,it seems to me she is very, very wise in such matters. If her children march of to war she allows them to do so and if not , not.

I had a brother one time, who, becuse of the violence around him used to walk about the city armed . He encouraged me to do the same and for a little while I did so. But it didn't sit right in my heart and so I trusted God to take care of me. Now I am not saying my brother was, simply wrong and that I was simply right. But there are ways and higher ways, the higher way for me was not to be armed. Similiarly the highest way for me would be to welcome a druggy into my flat and simply give him all that I have.

But i am afraid at the minute all he'll get from me is a punch in the nose and a bite on the ass from Bandit.

Bandit will never change, but I might.
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  #26  
Old 21st March 2007, 11:18 AM
MARIAN
 
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Hi,
I am just catching up on this thread this morning and a few things come to my mind.
Our Lady has said war is as a result of mans sins.
In Fatima she told the children that the war would soon be over but a new more terrible one would start if men did not change and repent. It did. In 1939 World War II. She constantly requested prayer and penance so these are the weapons. The same message was given in Rwanda and Bosnia and was equally ignored. Everyday I watch TV and see reality TV programs that demonise constentants and get the viewers all worked up in hating someone. I hear it on the radio phone ins. Hate is all about us and if we have not a good attitude and a christian prespective we get drawn in. Over the years I have seen many heroic people in Northern Ireland refuse to react with hatred to the most atrocious wrongs. I think of the Maguire family who spent 15 years wrongfully imprisoned. Their children who were old enough also imprisoned. Their young daughter had to be reared by a relative. They were eventually cleared and Mrs Annie Maguire emerged from prison with forgiveness on her lips to everybody who had caused her such suffering.
There are situations when war happens outside our personal control and we have to live with it. Soldiers do their duty and fight but we must not hate. We must always turn to God and pray and ask for his intervention.

Mary
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  #27  
Old 21st March 2007, 11:54 AM
CRW
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Padraig View Post
I wish in this way I could maybe be a bit kinder and more loving, but, (sigh) I'm not really able to be that way, its just not in me.

Padraig,

Reading your post the past few months reveals that you nearer at that milestone then you suggest in the quote above. You provide our Blessed Mother's request for prayer and Love more then most members that post.

Cecil
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  #28  
Old 21st March 2007, 01:35 PM
Mario
 
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Talking He who laughs last laughs best!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Padraig View Post

Bandit will never change, but I might.

Hope springs eternal!
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  #29  
Old 21st March 2007, 05:52 PM
Padraig
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dogs with wings and coconut trees

Deanna,

I wonder if God needs us to fight His battles;

Or if we need to fight God's battles for Him?

Cecil,

I often think it would be nice if God sprinkled a few more milestones along the road down here. Sometimes its feels like I'm getting dizzy going round in circles.

Mario,

I was just thinking and praying about the dog this morning and I thought of the words of Isaiah:

Isaiah 11:6 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them."

So maybe there's hope for Bandit yet. I surely hope so for it would do my heart good to see a very large German Shepherd with wings and lack of attitude. For some weird reason I should also like to see pineapple trees, coconut trees and Irish Pubs up there too. Don't ask me why..well you can understand the Irish Pubs, I suppose.



[IMG]
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  #30  
Old 21st March 2007, 06:26 PM
CRW
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Padraig View Post
Cecil,

I often think it would be nice if God sprinkled a few more milestones along the road down here. Sometimes its feels like I'm getting dizzy going round in circles.

Padraig,

I often think his grace is abundant, but we do not realize that they are there for us. I don't know how many times I have said, "But for the Grace of God go I".

Cecil
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