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  #41  
Old 27th May 2007, 10:29 PM
Climacus Areopagite Climacus Areopagite is offline
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The rabbit hole just keeps on getting deeper
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  #42  
Old 27th May 2007, 10:52 PM
Rob Rob is offline
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Just trying to dig more, Nicholas.
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Last edited by Rob : 27th May 2007 at 10:54 PM.
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  #43  
Old 27th May 2007, 11:21 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Angel View Post
Ron, I am wondering if you can tell us why you believe the apparitions in Aokpe, Nigeria,
are false besides the claim that Mary identified herself as "Mediatrix of All Graces". Because
of this claim, I agree with you on the falsity of these apparitions. Are there any scriptural
inaccuracies, conflict with Church doctrines, or failed predictions? Your section on
T&F PRs has no information on these apparitions. I am curious to know, for the Bishop
of Otukpo has approved of these apparitions and granted an 'imprimatur' for the publication
of the book 'The Aokpe Story' Thanks for your time.


On the 1st of October, 1993, Christiana saw a round object like a ball on the floor with flowers around it. Our Lady came and stood on it. Prompted by her mother, she was going to ask Our Lady's name. Our Lady cut in quickly and said, "Behold, I am a Holy Mother and I will introduce myself another time."
When Christiana stated, "I do not know your name," Our Lady replied: "The time of giving my name has not yet come. The name I will bring will be a powerful one. I will do many things in St. Patrick's Church"

1. The woman in the vision at first refuses to give her name.

2. The description of Hell is of extreme torture, not just and merciful punishment. Hell is described as if the devils are in charge there, as if it were not God's domain for the punishment of devils as well as human persons.

3. In the description of Hell, it is claimed that the souls praying are consoling God. God is the consoler of all who sorrow, but He is always happy and never needs consoling.

4. Concerning Purgatory, it is said that the souls there have no joy, then it is said that they do have joy when people pray for them. But since the Church is always praying for the souls in Purgatory, it would not be true that their joy was wavering and intermittent.

5. The messages claim that the three days of darkness will be 72 hours. But Marie Julie Jahenny stated it would be three days less one night. And it is clear from my understanding of Scripture that the three days of darkness is a reflection of the three days from Christ's Passion and Crucifixion to His Resurrection -- which was not 72 hours.

6. The messages repeatedly claim that the Virgin Mary called herself Mediatrix of All Graces. Mary knows that she is not the Mediatrix of the graces from Christ's Divine Nature to His human nature, within the hypostatic union; she also knows that she is not the Mediatrix of the great and many graces she has received herself. So she would not say that.

7. The messages reportedly say that Jesus Christ will return soon, and that the place of his return will be Rwanda. However, Scripture indicates that Christ will Return at Jerusalem, and there are numerous indications that His return is many generations in the future.
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  #44  
Old 27th May 2007, 11:25 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Already on my list:

True:
-Cuapa, Nicaragua (1980) http://www.apparitions.org/Cuapa.martinez.html


False:
-Barbara Rose Centelli (1996)- Midwest (U.S.A.)
-1996 Elyria, OH (U.S.A.) -Maureen Sweeney Kyle (missionaries of holy love)


Not Yet Reviewed (I don't have time):


-San Nicolas, Argentina (1983) http://www.reinadelcielo.org/estruct...Sec=1&intId=18

-Anguera, Brazil http://www.apelosurgentes.com.br/con...tegory/2/2/74/

-Mary Ellen Lukas (1996)- Hazelton, PA, USA
-Carmel Masters (1996) - Canberra, Australia
-Augustine Halvorsen (1997) - El Dorado, TX (U.S.A.)
-Suor Ruth Augustus (1997) - Sataua, Samoa
-Don Gerard Critch (1998 ) - St. John's, Antigua
-1996 New Jersey USA, Michael Diamond
-1996 Sisquoc, CA (USA) Barbara Mattias
-1996 Brooklyn, NY (USA) Terrence Ross

-Marpingen (Germany) 1999 [is this date right?]

Rob and everyone else,

If you would like to take a look at these and report on them to the discussion group, please feel free to do so.


Ron
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  #45  
Old 27th May 2007, 11:46 PM
Rob Rob is offline
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Ok, We'll try to use our sensus fidelium and the criteria that you have mentioned in you article about "tricks used in false revelations". I think that being able to spot false revelations shows our level of knowledge in matters of Faith. Anyone wanting to contribute, just pick a claim, gather as much information as you can, find the "odds" and then post them. I am sure that could help.
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  #46  
Old 27th May 2007, 11:54 PM
Climacus Areopagite Climacus Areopagite is offline
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Here are two articles by Ron that could be used.

http://catholicplanet.com/apparitions/discernment.htm

http://catholicplanet.com/apparition...evelations.htm

If someone starts to evaluate one of the above I suggest starting a new thread so it is ordered and others can add to it.
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  #47  
Old 28th May 2007, 02:46 PM
Rob Rob is offline
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Here is a list of claimed apparitions which can be used as a source:

http://www.2heartsnetwork.org/apparitions2.htm
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  #48  
Old 30th May 2007, 10:24 PM
Rob Rob is offline
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Ron, what do you think about this alleged mystic?

She is called Dina Basher, she lives in Mozul, Iraq and is syrian-orthodox. She exudes oil from the hands and apparently has mystic visions, but when she claimed that Jesus will come soon, her credibility soon dropped. So is this a case of false signs and wonders, then?

Here is an interview:

http://www.spiritdaily.org/Sign_Wonders/iraqseer.htm



-What about the oil that comes from your hands?

"I have felt the wounds in my hands, the wounds of Christ, and the oil comes out."

-When did this next happen?

"After that I went to Mozul to my uncle's again, to visit some of the homes, and more blood came from my hands than before, and the wound in my side became eight centimeters [three inches] in size. After ten minutes it closed by itself and the blood dried up. There were two priests there who were watching. I felt a pain, a spiritual pain. There was also blood on my forehead in the shape of a cross."

-because He says, 'My Second Coming is now drawing near.'

-she had an ecstasy and related the message of Jesus as: "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand," and said He spoke to her about His "near Second Coming" and told her all people must fast three days.

-the Lord allegedly said, "Stay awake because you do not know when the time will come. I will give you an example of this. A man traveling abroad leaves home and places his servants in charge, each with his work, and orders the gate keeper to be on watch. Watch, therefore, you do not know when the lord of the house is coming, whether in the morning, in the evening, or at cock crow. I tell you a second time, stay awake, my dear ones."


Why so many false apparition make such a large use of the "second coming" of Christ? Is this a misquotation perhaps? After all we cannot really tell what many seers mean by "Jesus will come soon", it could mean 100 or 200 years (unless the seers say that Jesus will come back in few years, of course). How can we be certain that they are not referring to a larger time span?
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Last edited by Rob : 30th May 2007 at 10:28 PM.
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  #49  
Old 31st May 2007, 12:28 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Yes, her signs and wonders are the false kind.
indicators:
The repeated claims that Jesus' return is imminent.
The claim that fasting with the tongue (silence) is better than fasting from food.

'Jesus' tells a parable, but it lacks depth or any real significance of meaning.
Over-emphasis on signs and wonders, as if they were saying 'believe because of the signs, not the message,' even though Jesus warned us about false signs and wonders.

I'm adding her to my false list.
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