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  #1  
Old 20th November 2006, 01:00 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default Pro Multis

The Vatican has ruled that the Latin phrase pro multis be translated as 'for many' rather than 'for all'.

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=47719

This change affects the prayers used at Mass: 'will be shed for you and for many for the remission of sins.'


Ron
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  #2  
Old 20th November 2006, 04:36 PM
Climacus Areopagite Climacus Areopagite is offline
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thank God they finally did this. It is a good sign. Some traditional theologians have written whole books on this subject.


Nicholas
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  #3  
Old 22nd November 2006, 07:30 PM
Catholicity
 
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Amen. This is good.
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  #4  
Old 6th December 2006, 01:18 AM
cocatholic
 
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In my mind this has the implication that "for many" versus "for all" that only the believers in Christ are redeemed through Christ's sacrifice.

Can someone correct me if I'm wrong on this?
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  #5  
Old 6th December 2006, 12:53 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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it does mean that not all are saved
it does not mean that not all are offered salvation
it does not mean that only those or all those who believe are saved

salvation is complex
it is not as simple as believe and you'll be saved


Ron
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  #6  
Old 6th December 2006, 08:52 PM
cocatholic
 
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Ron- Thanks for the clarification.

1) What then exactly is the positive nature of this change?
2) Do you have an article or essay that goes further into detail the nature of salvation? I understand that John 3:16 and the simple belief is a good start, but that salvation should also continue with living as Christ taught. To "make disciples of all nations" and to "love your enemy as yourself".
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  #7  
Old 6th December 2006, 10:02 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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I have some articles on the topic of salvation:

http://www.catholicplanet.com/RCC/index.htm

especially on mystical baptism, and on who goes to Heaven, and on repentance.

But I don't have an article that comprehensively deals with the theology of salvation.

Ron
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  #8  
Old 7th December 2006, 04:11 PM
DiAZ216
 
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Well, here it is in today's Gospel reading:

"Jesus said to his disciples:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’
will enter the Kingdom of heaven,
but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."

Jesus Himself clearly states that it is more than believing or even speaking; He says clearly that it is those who "do" and who "act".


"the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."

"Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them"

Darrell
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  #9  
Old 11th December 2006, 03:50 AM
Mario
 
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Default Is 53:11-12

...he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities...yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

This is the Isaiah passage mentioned in the article Ron referenced above. Various Biblical scholars link the suffering servant of Is 53 to both Christ's passion and the words of consecration in the Holy Mass. Notice the double reference to "the many". Christ redeemed all, but not all are ultimately made righteous and saved.

It makes me think of these words of Jesus, too:

The Son of Man has come not to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for the many.

When asked at her trial if she was in the state of grace (i.e. one of the many), Joan of Arc responded:

If I am not, may it please my Lord to put me there, and if I am, may it please my Lord to keep me there!

O, that I may have such humble trust in the mercy of God and live accordingly!
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