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  #11  
Old 18th April 2007, 03:20 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Ron,

Concerning the temporal authority (judgments of the prudential order) of bishops.

Is this authority absolute or limited to that authority granted by the Holy See. The USCCB, has authority when granted by the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM), to make changes. However, changes made require the approval of the Holy See. One example I can site: The GIRM required the priest, deacon, or acolyte to purify the blessed vessels after Holy Communion. The USCCB requested approval to allow EMHC to do the purification. A temporary approval was granted and expired. After numerous letters, the Holy See ordered the change in the US. Reluctantly, many complied; however, some still do not.

Cecil

Is this authority absolute or limited to that authority granted by the Holy See?

Neither. The ability and authority to exercise the temporal authority of the Church is intrinsic to the Bishop's ordination to the episcopate, by which he becomes a true Apostle in the Church. So this authority is not a temporary and revocable authority granted by the Holy See.

However, Peter is still the leader of the Apostles, so this authority (of a local Bishop) is not absolute.

The role of Bishops' conferences, however, is quite different. The authority of the conference per se is granted by the Holy See and is entirely revocable. The Church has not always had Bishops' Conferences, nor is such an organization intrinsic to ordination. So the USCCB has whatever authority the Holy See grants to it, for whatever period of time it is granted.

A group of local Bishops, such as the USCCB, have been given a certain degree of authority by the Holy See, but even if all the Bishops of the USCCB were in agreement on a matter of temporal authority, except one Bishop who was the head of a diocese, the rest of the USCCB could not compell that one Bishop to comply with its orders. A Bishop is an Apostle; he has his own authority by virtue of ordination, and he is also answerable to the authority of Peter.

There is and must be a certain balance in the relationship between the Pope and the Bishops. They are not merely his assistants, believing and doing whatever he says. But neither can they oppose him obstinately and reject his role as leader. The Bishops are all brothers, with one brother as the head of them all.

Concerning the purification of vessels, the Holy See has the authority to require priests, not laypersons, to purify the vessels. An individual local Ordinary may have some ground to stand on in granting some exception to this rule in some circumstances. However, complete rejection of this rule would be problematic (but not heresy or schism).

It is not always clear, even to the Bishops and the Holy See, exactly what the limits are of their respective authorities.
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  #12  
Old 18th April 2007, 06:36 PM
Rob Rob is offline
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Ron,

Concerning temporal authority of the Church. Apparently the Church has authority to even govern nations, and not just set rules and make dispositions within the clergy. Correct? How far does this temporal authority extend to?
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  #13  
Old 18th April 2007, 07:20 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Ron,

Concerning temporal authority of the Church. Apparently the Church has authority to even govern nations, and not just set rules and make dispositions within the clergy. Correct? How far does this temporal authority extend to?

In my theological opinion, the temporal authority of the Church extends even to nations, leaders of nations, lawmakers, etc. However, the world does not acknowledge this authority, and the Church prudently and humbly exhorts and teaches, rather than insisting on obedience from the secular world.

In theory, the Church has authority over every person and institution on earth.
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  #14  
Old 18th April 2007, 07:29 PM
Padraig
 
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I never heard that before. Amazing.

Would this mean then that the Holy Father would have the moral authority say to instruct say the British Prime Minister?

Last edited by Padraig : 18th April 2007 at 07:34 PM.
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  #15  
Old 18th April 2007, 07:35 PM
Climacus Areopagite Climacus Areopagite is offline
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Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
In my theological opinion, the temporal authority of the Church extends even to nations, leaders of nations, lawmakers, etc. However, the world does not acknowledge this authority, and the Church prudently and humbly exhorts and teaches, rather than insisting on obedience from the secular world.

In theory, the Church has authority over every person and institution on earth.

[Psalm 2]
{2:1} Why have the Gentiles been seething, and why have the people been pondering nonsense?
{2:2} The kings of the earth have stood up, and the leaders have joined together as one, against the Lord and against his Christ:
{2:3} “Let us shatter their chains and cast their yoke away from us.”
{2:4} He who dwells in heaven will ridicule them, and the Lord will mock them.
{2:5} Then will he speak to them in his anger and trouble them with his fury.
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  #16  
Old 18th April 2007, 08:08 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by Padraig View Post
I never heard that before. Amazing.

Would this mean then that the Holy Father would have the moral authority say to instruct say the British Prime Minister?

Yes. The Pope has the authority from God to govern nations and their leaders.
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  #17  
Old 18th April 2007, 08:11 PM
untamed_angel
 
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Very interesting Ron. Thank you
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  #18  
Old 19th April 2007, 03:11 AM
Bomber
 
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Wow, Ron...

I am learning so much from you about Catholicism...

I have a question, though:

Can you expound on your statement about an ordained man in Hell still retaining his traits (or whatever term you used)?

Thanks a lot!
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  #19  
Old 19th April 2007, 03:19 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by Bomber View Post
Wow, Ron...

I am learning so much from you about Catholicism...

I have a question, though:

Can you expound on your statement about an ordained man in Hell still retaining his traits (or whatever term you used)?

Thanks a lot!

1121 The three sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders confer, in addition to grace, a sacramental character or “seal” by which the Christian shares in Christ's priesthood and is made a member of the Church according to different states and functions. This configuration to Christ and to the Church, brought about by the Spirit, is indelible, it remains for ever in the Christian as a positive disposition for grace, a promise and guarantee of divine protection, and as a vocation to divine worship and to the service of the Church. Therefore these sacraments can never be repeated.

I would add that Holy Orders is one Sacrament with three degrees (analogous to the Trinity).

So, even if a person goes to Hell, the indelible character on their soul of these Sacraments remains.
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  #20  
Old 19th April 2007, 04:16 AM
Bomber
 
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I understand what you are saying, I suppose my curiosity is on how?

How can somebody have, "positive disposition for grace, a promise and guarantee of divine protection, and as a vocation to divine worship and to the service of the Church" while in Hell forever?

Is it possible that either:

1. After the General Judgment, this is removed when the are reunited with their physical bodies and go to Hell,

or

2. They keep the marks, but these same marks are the source of "extra" (if you will) pain in Hell forever, because they had an higher standard to adhere to, which they failed.

As an example, a priest that leaves the Church to get married. can he go to Heaven?

Thanks (and don't stay up too late, we are on the same time and I am a night owl!)

Bomber
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