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  #21  
Old 19th April 2007, 04:58 AM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
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Default How does this tie in with wayward bishops and cardinals?

Ron: given what you have said regarding bishops and cardinals having their own authority to teach and lead, then how is one to deal with the issue of wayard bishops and cardinals pushing the envelope of church teaching etc?

If someone sees such bishops and cardinals as wayward, but believes them to be completely or mostly subserivient and necessarily obedient to the Pope, then it might be easier for some to simply say "that bishop is wrong and has no authority to say that", especailly if the bishop or cardinal's teaching contradicts the pope.

Given what you have said, however, does not such a structure only make things worse by concentrating authority less on one person but more on the group at large. Does such a thing not only make it more difficult to stop heresy practiced and taught by wayward bishops and cardinals? gabe
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  #22  
Old 19th April 2007, 12:11 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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I understand what you are saying, I suppose my curiosity is on how?

How can somebody have, "positive disposition for grace, a promise and guarantee of divine protection, and as a vocation to divine worship and to the service of the Church" while in Hell forever?

Obviously, that part of the quote refers to those who are in a state of grace. However, for those who lose the state of grace through actual mortal sin, and even for those in Hell, a remnant of the gift of any or all of those three Sacraments remains indelible on the soul. The soul is permanently changed by each of those three Sacraments.

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Is it possible that either:

1. After the General Judgment, this is removed when the are reunited with their physical bodies and go to Hell,

No, not possible.

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Originally Posted by Bomber View Post
2. They keep the marks, but these same marks are the source of "extra" (if you will) pain in Hell forever, because they had an higher standard to adhere to, which they failed.

Yes.

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As an example, a priest that leaves the Church to get married. can he go to Heaven?
Bomber

Yes, he can go to Heaven.
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  #23  
Old 19th April 2007, 12:21 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by garabandalg View Post
Ron: given what you have said regarding bishops and cardinals having their own authority to teach and lead, then how is one to deal with the issue of wayard bishops and cardinals pushing the envelope of church teaching etc?

The fullness of the gift of the Magisterium resides in the Pope, who can never fall into heresy or schism. He cannot lose his authority to teach and to lead.

When a Cardinal or Bishop departs from the true Faith, he loses his authority to teach and to lead. However, the lay faithful should not be so quick to claim that a Cardinal or Bishop has erred. Often it is the case that the Cardinal or Bishop understands the Faith better than the laypersons who are disagreeing with him.

For example, some Catholics in Australia complained to the Vatican about Cardinal Pell. These laypersons said that conscience is first, above the teaching of the Church, and they complained when Pell tried to correct them. This is a common problem in the Church today: each person assumes that their own limited understanding of the Faith is perfect; so then, no one can teach or correct them.

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Originally Posted by garabandalg View Post
If someone sees such bishops and cardinals as wayward, but believes them to be completely or mostly subserivient and necessarily obedient to the Pope, then it might be easier for some to simply say "that bishop is wrong and has no authority to say that", especailly if the bishop or cardinal's teaching contradicts the pope.

Concerning the non-infallible teachings of the Church, and various open theological questions (whose answers are a matter of pious opinion), the Cardinals and the Bishops are free to disagree with the Pope, as long as they are not claiming that any non-infallible teaching errs to such an extent as to lead the faithful away from the path of salvation.

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Originally Posted by garabandalg View Post
Given what you have said, however, does not such a structure only make things worse by concentrating authority less on one person but more on the group at large. Does such a thing not only make it more difficult to stop heresy practiced and taught by wayward bishops and cardinals? gabe

Christ chose 12 Apostles, not merely one.
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  #24  
Old 19th April 2007, 02:44 PM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
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Default Points taken, but what of clearly heretical Bishops and Cardinals?

Ron: I understand that many people, perhaps all of us included at some time or another, will indirectly or directly believe that our understanding of an issue is the right one and, therefore, any Bishop or Cardinal who contradicts that understanding is wrong. I also accept that such men surely know more than most if not all of us in these matters, but history is loaded with examples where great intelligence and great knowledge do not automatically equate to truth.

Thomas Aquinas was who he was because of his great intelligence, insight and expression in the service of God. Had he used these gifts in the service of evil, he would have been a legendary figure of misinformation and heresy.
Now one might argue that his wisdom would have prevented such distortion or confusion on his part, but that would be assuming that wisdom always leads to truth. I believe wisdom leads to truth when it respects truth and has been founded in truth. Getting back to these men, what of Mahony and others who promote homosexuality, defend abortion etc as evidenced by their actions and words? It is of these that I was speaking when I mentioned Bishops and Cardinals who are "wayward". Jesus chose twelve apostles, not one, but one of the twelve was Judas Iscariot, and Christ chose him in order to fulfill Scripture. Now that Scripture tells us that the Church will experience division, heresy etc. At some point the individual must think for him or herself and say, "this religious/bishop/cardinal is not acting/speaking consistently with the Church, I must ignore/speak out against him/her." Am I right or wrong? Gabe
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  #25  
Old 19th April 2007, 02:53 PM
Love The Fisherman
 
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Default Power To Cast Out Demons

Hi Ron,
Thanks for the clarity of your presentations. Can you please explain a little about Authority in the spiritual sense vis-a-vis Exorcism. I know that the Church has authority over Demons and that certain priests are appointed by Bishops to banish Demons. But in at least one case the Apostles/Desciples failed to do this and Jesus said that Prayer and Fasting was needed. If Authority is dependent on Prayer and Fasting (the authority to cast out Demons) what sort of Authority do Bishops receive (as of right) when they are appointed? Are there different types of Authority?
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  #26  
Old 19th April 2007, 03:16 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by garabandalg View Post
Getting back to these men, what of Mahony and others who promote homosexuality, defend abortion etc as evidenced by their actions and words? It is of these that I was speaking when I mentioned Bishops and Cardinals who are "wayward". Jesus chose twelve apostles, not one, but one of the twelve was Judas Iscariot, and Christ chose him in order to fulfill Scripture. Now that Scripture tells us that the Church will experience division, heresy etc. At some point the individual must think for him or herself and say, "this religious/bishop/cardinal is not acting/speaking consistently with the Church, I must ignore/speak out against him/her." Am I right or wrong? Gabe

It is not our place to judge each and every Cardinal and Bishop.
If a Cardinal or Bishop teaches something incompatible with the
teaching of the Church, then you can follow the teaching of the
Church instead. However, do not judge the person.
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  #27  
Old 19th April 2007, 03:17 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by Love The Fisherman View Post
Hi Ron,
Thanks for the clarity of your presentations. Can you please explain a little about Authority in the spiritual sense vis-a-vis Exorcism. I know that the Church has authority over Demons and that certain priests are appointed by Bishops to banish Demons. But in at least one case the Apostles/Desciples failed to do this and Jesus said that Prayer and Fasting was needed. If Authority is dependent on Prayer and Fasting (the authority to cast out Demons) what sort of Authority do Bishops receive (as of right) when they are appointed? Are there different types of Authority?

I don't think this subject is related to the teaching and temporal authority of the Church.
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  #28  
Old 19th April 2007, 04:07 PM
RJP2006 RJP2006 is offline
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Default Very good point Ron

"This distinction between teachings and rules, between the teaching authority and the temporal authority is very important. It is one of the main points that I would like to convey in the section."
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  #29  
Old 20th April 2007, 04:43 AM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
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Default I understand again, but ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
It is not our place to judge each and every Cardinal and Bishop.
If a Cardinal or Bishop teaches something incompatible with the
teaching of the Church, then you can follow the teaching of the
Church instead. However, do not judge the person.

Again, respectfully, I understand what you are saying but, first, it is said that much evil occurs when good people do nothing and so one can ask, did not The Baptist and, of course, Our Lord Himself, speak out against those who contradicted the teaching of God? Is it enough to just follow Church teaching and ignore the cleric who is contradicting the Church. In doing so, is not one simply worrying only about one's own soul and salvation? Meanwhile, if one speaks out against such conduct, there are two possibilities. If one is wrong and the cleric is good, then one's words will eventually only help others see that said cleric is good and one is wrong. If one is right, however, then one's words might help even one other person to not follow the wayward cleric's example. If a bishop speaks in favor of abortion or homosexuality and all we do is follow Church teaching and not speak out against him, then does not our silence combined with that cleric's position make it more likely that some may be led astray by that cleric? One last thing: Is speaking out against someone's example or words judging them or simply loving them and their role enough to act? I understand that many will say just pray for them and I am sure that is powerful, but it is just that I do not think that merely following Church teaching will stop this cleric from leading more souls astray. Was it St.Malachy who said that the floor of hell is lined with the skulls of wayward religious? Perhaps this is so because too many of us poor, defective sinners did not deem ourselves capable or qualified to help another sinner just because he or she wears religious clothing. I know this is compex, and I am merely a regular, very defective and human person, but this how I understand the proactive role we must have toward not only our salvation , but that of others. I guess I am asking if we save others' souls best by speaking out against their sin as well as recognizing our own or by simply dealing with our own problems?
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  #30  
Old 20th April 2007, 10:01 AM
Love The Fisherman
 
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Default John's Revelation

Hi Ron,
Do you think that when The Lord addressed the Seven Churches in Asia in the first part of the Book of Revelation that he did this to highlight the Autonomy each respective Bishop holds in His Church. Do you think that each church represents a separate Bishop?

Also I remember clearly reading some years ago that our present Pope said (when he was still a Cardinal) that Authority (in the Christian sense) could only be understood in the context of Service and Responsibility. I surmise from this that our Bishops carry a heavy weight indeed!
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