CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group  

Go Back   CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group > Catholic Continuing Education > Teaching Series - dogmatic theology
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 5th November 2008, 01:46 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,592
Default the Truths of the Faith

1. The teaching of the Catholic Church is everything taught, explicitly or implicitly, by infallible Sacred Tradition, everything taught, explicitly or implicitly, by infallible Sacred Scripture, and the teachings of the Magisterium.

Anyone who believes only what is explicitly taught in documents of the Magisterium, and not also all that is taught by Tradition and Scripture, and all that is necessarily implied as true by Tradition, Scripture, and Magisterium, is a heretic who has gone astray from the true Catholic Faith.

There is an error common among many devout Catholics, in which they only believe what is the common belief among other devout Catholics. It does not matter to them what Sacred Scripture says, or what the Saints have said and done, or what the explicit teachings of the Magisterium necessarily imply. Unless a teaching is explicitly stated in a document, or is commonly held by the priests and theologians to whom they listen, they do not accept it. Even if a teaching is explicitly stated in a document, they adhere to the interpretation of others, not to what the document actually states; and if the truth is something implied by the document, not stated outright, they again do not believe unless it is the majority opinion.

Their faith is not based on Tradition, Scripture, Magisterium. It is belief by consensus; they don't believe unless it is the majority opinion among the persons they consider to be conservative and devout. But this is a human faith, not the true supernatural faith from God. When you only believe what everyone else in your peer group believes, you do not have true faith, and that applies to conservative devout Catholics as well as to any other persons.

It is a heresy to only believe what magisterial documents explicitly state, or what a consensus of conservative and devout priests and theologians belief and teach. The teaching of the Catholic Faith is Tradition, Scripture, and Magisterium; it is a heresy to ignore Tradition, Scripture, Magisterium, and to only believe the consensus interpretation.

For example, Scripture states:
[1 Corinthians]
{14:34} Women should be silent in the Churches. For it is not permitted for them to speak; but instead, they should be subordinate, as the law also says.
{14:35} And if they want to learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the Church.

But since the fallible temporal authority of the Church permits women lectors, many of the faithful refuse to believe this teaching of infallible Sacred Scripture.

And it is the same with any other teaching. If Tradition or Scripture or even past teachings of the Magisterium clearly teach one thing, but if it is not commonly taught or practiced today, they do not accept it. For their faith is sorely lacking.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 5th November 2008, 02:44 PM
spiriton spiriton is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 48
Default

Ron,

I'm confused over the above example from the bible, i.e. women should be silent in Church. Since our Church allows it, that implies that our Church is wrong. Wouldn't that then make our leaders heretics for allowing it??

Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 5th November 2008, 03:12 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,592
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiriton View Post
Ron,

I'm confused over the above example from the bible, i.e. women should be silent in Church. Since our Church allows it, that implies that our Church is wrong. Wouldn't that then make our leaders heretics for allowing it??

Thanks.

No, it does not make them heretics for permitting it. It merely means that the temporal authority of the Church is fallible.

The Magisterium is only infallible under certain conditions (see my post on the subject), otherwise it is non-infallible (limited possibility of error). The temporal authority of the Church is fallible.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 5th November 2008, 08:50 PM
Sacredcello's Avatar
Sacredcello Sacredcello is offline
supporting member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 954
Default

I recently went to confession to a priest who is extremely devout, who becomes angered when he hears about people within the Church speaking falsely about Church teaching. My confession was about head coverings. I know that we have been officially released from this requirement, but that it is still in Sacred Scripture which is infallible. I confessed that I was sorry that I didn't know about the importance of head coverings, that I believed what I had been told by others and witnessed that no one wears them anymore. Now that I have been wearing a head covering in Church, I was sorry that I had not done so previously. This priest told me that there was a great deal of sexism during the times of St. Paul, but that Jesus did not treat women that way. He said that we are not required to wear head coverings any longer. Another priest who I spoke to about this looked at me as if I were a leper and said that what God cares about is what is in our hearts. He seemed to imply that I was being superficial.

One question I have about all this is this: if the apparitions of Medjugorje are true, why doesn't the Blessed Mother tell the seers to cover their heads when they are praying? Why didn't the seers of Garabandal wear head coverings during the apparitions? I have seen photographs of them with head coverings, but these are posed shots not taken during prayer. If devout Catholics are being sinful for only believing what their peer groups believe, then why doesn't the Blessed Mother correct those who are supposed to be giving a message to the whole world about our faith?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 5th November 2008, 09:25 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,592
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacredcello View Post
I recently went to confession to a priest who is extremely devout, who becomes angered when he hears about people within the Church speaking falsely about Church teaching. My confession was about head coverings. I know that we have been officially released from this requirement, but that it is still in Sacred Scripture which is infallible. I confessed that I was sorry that I didn't know about the importance of head coverings, that I believed what I had been told by others and witnessed that no one wears them anymore. Now that I have been wearing a head covering in Church, I was sorry that I had not done so previously. This priest told me that there was a great deal of sexism during the times of St. Paul, but that Jesus did not treat women that way. He said that we are not required to wear head coverings any longer. Another priest who I spoke to about this looked at me as if I were a leper and said that what God cares about is what is in our hearts. He seemed to imply that I was being superficial.
Anyone who claims that the teachings of Sacred Scripture in the letters of Saint Paul are not true teachings from God, but merely a reflection of sinful bias in that society and culture, is guilty of heresy in rejecting the inerrancy of the Bible.

As for headcoverings (veils), women are required by the moral law to wear a veil on their hearts; the wearing of a veil on their heads is an outward sign of that inner heart. So, wearing a veil is part of discipline, and is dispensible; but the reason for wearing the veil is doctrine of faith (differences in roles of men and women); and the intention of mind and heart that should accompany wearing the veil is required by the moral law. So we have doctrine of faith, and of morals, and a discipline, all in the wearing of a veil with the proper understanding and intention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacredcello View Post
One question I have about all this is this: if the apparitions of Medjugorje are true, why doesn't the Blessed Mother tell the seers to cover their heads when they are praying? Why didn't the seers of Garabandal wear head coverings during the apparitions? I have seen photographs of them with head coverings, but these are posed shots not taken during prayer. If devout Catholics are being sinful for only believing what their peer groups believe, then why doesn't the Blessed Mother correct those who are supposed to be giving a message to the whole world about our faith?

Mary is constrained as to what she can say in any private revelation, because God does not permit her, nor would she wish to, replace Tradition, Scripture, Magisterium.

So she will not correct every error of a visionary. For example, recently a priest of Medjugorje was rebuked by the Holy See. He influenced a particular visionary to lie about what the Virgin Mary had said. Eventually the visionary repented, but Mary did not correct this visionary; she had to realize her sins and faults on her own.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 6th November 2008, 04:42 AM
Sacredcello's Avatar
Sacredcello Sacredcello is offline
supporting member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 954
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Anyone who claims that the teachings of Sacred Scripture in the letters of Saint Paul are not true teachings from God, but merely a reflection of sinful bias in that society and culture, is guilty of heresy in rejecting the inerrancy of the Bible.

As for headcoverings (veils), women are required by the moral law to wear a veil on their hearts; the wearing of a veil on their heads is an outward sign of that inner heart. So, wearing a veil is part of discipline, and is dispensible; but the reason for wearing the veil is doctrine of faith (differences in roles of men and women); and the intention of mind and heart that should accompany wearing the veil is required by the moral law. So we have doctrine of faith, and of morals, and a discipline, all in the wearing of a veil with the proper understanding and intention.



I believe it is possible to both recognize the existence of sexism in society, but to uphold the inerrancy of the Bible at the same time. In other words, the priest whom I confessed to was not necessarily committing heresy when he spoke about sexism in biblical times. Perhaps he was, but it was not clear to me that he was rejecting the inerrancy of the Bible. He simply mentioned sexism, which, of course, did exist in those times. There may even be a connection between the discipline of wearing the veil and sexism (though the wearing of the veil itself is not a sexist discipline), for example, in Muslim society.

As for me, I have come to enjoy wearing hats, snoods, and hair bands of all different sorts, both during Mass, and out in the world. I like the discipline, even if it is dispensable.

Last edited by Sacredcello : 6th November 2008 at 04:44 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 8th February 2009, 10:58 PM
Sacredcello's Avatar
Sacredcello Sacredcello is offline
supporting member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 954
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post

As for headcoverings (veils), women are required by the moral law to wear a veil on their hearts; the wearing of a veil on their heads is an outward sign of that inner heart. So, wearing a veil is part of discipline, and is dispensible; but the reason for wearing the veil is doctrine of faith (differences in roles of men and women); and the intention of mind and heart that should accompany wearing the veil is required by the moral law. So we have doctrine of faith, and of morals, and a discipline, all in the wearing of a veil with the proper understanding and intention.

Hello Ron,

I have benefited very much from your writings on the subject of proper dress for women, including headcoverings. Since reading your article: http://www.catholicplanet.com/women/dress.htm, I have ceased to wear trousers and now only wear long skirts and always a headcovering or hat at Mass. I just have a question about item number 12 of your Summary about proper dress for Catholic women:

12. Twelfth, when a woman gives up wearing pants and strives to dress in a manner pleasing to Christ and Mary, even though the culture around her tells her otherwise, she will be blessed by God and her prayers will be answered.

Where did you get this idea that God will answer our prayers if we dress properly, which implies that He will not if we do not dress in this manner? I only ask in order to understand, not to be argumentative. Were you thinking of the great saints, such as St. Teresa of Avila and St. Therese of Lisieux, who both wore the habit and were also greatly favored by God?

My husband is not enthusiastic about my wearing of hats or headcoverings, as it brings up negative feelings for him, of a time before Vatican II when things were in need of reform. I hope he will change his mind after the Warning.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 9th February 2009, 01:49 AM
Dan A Dan A is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: KS
Posts: 205
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
As for headcoverings (veils), women are required by the moral law to wear a veil on their hearts; the wearing of a veil on their heads is an outward sign of that inner heart. So, wearing a veil is part of discipline, and is dispensible; but the reason for wearing the veil is doctrine of faith (differences in roles of men and women); and the intention of mind and heart that should accompany wearing the veil is required by the moral law. So we have doctrine of faith, and of morals, and a discipline, all in the wearing of a veil with the proper understanding and intention.

My wife (who is a convert) does not wear a veil and that would be one tough battle to get her to wear one.

I understand the purpose of the veil but didn't Christ go out of his way to elevate woman? Many of the things he did, did not fit the social norms of the day. Man and woman have seperate roles, of that I have no question. Based on how some woman dress in church, they need more than a veil.
__________________
King of kings and Lord of lords.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 9th February 2009, 05:47 AM
Sacredcello's Avatar
Sacredcello Sacredcello is offline
supporting member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 954
Default

Because I am a convert to the Catholic Faith, I have been seeking answers to many questions and have been fortunate to discover Ron's writings and this forum. Wearing the veil (and hats and headbands) is a practice I only recently began after some discernment. My husband is not thrilled about it, but he doesn't complain too much. He jokingly threatened to wear a beanie with a propeller at Mass, if I wore a headcovering. This brought up an interesting question about why men do not wear head coverings, and I understand that it is because men are acknowledging that Christ is head of the Church while a man is the head of the family, so this is why women are to be covered.

I do have a question, though, about why men no longer wear beards, according to Leviticus:

{19:27} And you shall not cut the hair of your head circularly, nor shave your beard.

One of my friends is inclined to dismiss all Old Testament teachings, including those against homosexuality, saying that we are hypocrites to observe some, but not all of the Old Testament.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 9th February 2009, 12:25 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,592
Default

12. Twelfth, when a woman gives up wearing pants and strives to dress in a manner pleasing to Christ and Mary, even though the culture around her tells her otherwise, she will be blessed by God and her prayers will be answered.

I didn't mean that all of her prayers would be answered without exception. I merely meant that whenever we do God's will amid the difficulties of this life we please God and He more often answers our prayers.

It is also the case that new converts receive answers to prayers perhaps more readily, God favoring them as a mother favors a new child.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.