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  #1  
Old 25th September 2006, 01:28 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default Matthew 6

There are a number of interesting passages in this chapter. I'll let other members comment on those. I'd like to take a look at the section on the Our Father prayer:

{6:9} Sic ergo vos orabitis: Pater noster, qui es in cælis: sanctificetur nomen tuum.
{6:9} Therefore, you shall pray in this way: Our Father, who is in heaven: May your name be kept holy.

~ Or, 'may your name be sanctified.'

{6:10} Adveniat regnum tuum. Fiat voluntas tua, sicut in cælo, et in terra.
{6:10} May your kingdom come. May your will be done, as in heaven, so also on earth.

~ This last part is similar to a line in 1 Maccabees 3:60
"Nevertheless, as it shall be willed in heaven, so let it be."

{6:11} Panem nostrum supersubstantialem da nobis hodie.
{6:11} Give us this day our life-sustaining bread.

~ The word ‘super’ in Latin is sometimes used to refer to remaining alive (above ground). The word ‘substantialem’ refers to what is essential or necessary. So supersubstantialem refers to what is necessary to sustain life, in this case, spiritual life.

{6:12} Et dimitte nobis debita nostra, sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris.
{6:12} And forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors.

~ It is interesting that the Latin here uses 'debts' instead of 'tresspasses'.

{6:13} Et ne nos inducas in tentationem. Sed libera nos a malo. Amen.
{6:13} And lead us not into temptation. But free us from evil. Amen.

I don't think that 'the evil one' is a fitting translation of 'malo' because the term 'malo' is not generally used in Latin to refer to the devil. The word 'tentationem' can mean either temptation or testing, as in being put to the test.


Let's compare this to the same passage from Luke

{11:2} Et ait illis: Cum oratis, dicite: Pater, sanctificetur nomen tuum. Adveniat regnum tuum.
{11:2} And he said to them: “When you are praying, say: Father, may your name be kept holy. May your kingdom come.

{11:3} Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie.
{11:3} Give us this day our daily bread.

~ Notice that Luke has 'daily bread,' whereas Matthew has the more abstract 'life-sustaining bread'. Quotes in the Bible are not intended to be read as exact word-for-word quotes, but rather a representation of the meaning of what a person was saying. While it is possible that Jesus taught twice on this important topic, it is also possible that He taught once on this topic and, under inspiration, Matthew and Luke each brought out different levels of meaning to what Jesus said.

{11:4} Et dimitte nobis peccata nostra, siquidem et ipsi dimittimus omni debenti nobis. Et ne nos inducas in tentationem.
{11:4} And forgive us our sins, since we also forgive all who are indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.”

Again, debt is used instead of the modern version of the prayer which uses tresspasses.


Ron


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Old 25th September 2006, 02:59 PM
Nathan
 
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Two thoughts:

1. I remember someone saying that "super-substantial," hyperousion in Greek, refers not only to daily bread but also to the eucharist, which sustains us mystically, and that this is a prayer as well for partaking in our super-substantial God, who daily animates us, gives us life, and deifies us though union with Jesus. Is this coherent?

2. "the evil-one," tou ponerou in the Greek, has a long Patristic tradition as referring to the devil. In the Greek it has the definate article, and so can funciton either as a personal title or a something in general. The Latin tradition has interpreted it as evil in general, but the East has generally considered this to refer to the tempter himself, Satan... hence the parallelism between "lead us not into temptation... but deliver us..." with the understanding that it is the evil one who tempts. When my wife and I pray together we say "evil," but because I am Orthodox I have been taught to say "evil one" in personal prayer, and because my wife is Roman CAtholic, she prays "...but deliver us from all that is evil" when she says it in her personal prayer...

I like to think that these can co-exist in Tradition, just as Matthew and Luke have different takes on the beatitudes... one beatifying the poor in spirit, the other the poor in general, etc.
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Old 25th September 2006, 03:08 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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I agree with what you are saying. Yes, that is coherent about the various levels of meaning of super-substantial.

Yes, the Greek and Latin scriptural traditions can co-exist and have different points of view on the text, and can both be correct.

Good points.


Ron
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Old 5th February 2013, 02:06 AM
sammy sammy is offline
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Our father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name - directed to the Father.
Thy kingdom come - directed through the Son to the Father thru whom the work of the kingdom is brought to fruition.
Thy will be done - directed through the Holy Spirit to the Father through whom the will of the Father is primarily made manifest.

Give us this day our daily bread - Supplication directly to the Father.
And forgive us our debts - Supplication to the Father through the Son thru whom forgiveness primarily comes.
And lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil - Supplication to the Father through the Holy Spirit through whom this work is primarily accomplished.

Of course there is overlap as God is Three but One. I am referring primarily to an order of procession that I feel when I say this prayer.
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Old 5th February 2013, 03:33 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Good insight, Sammy.
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Old 5th February 2013, 03:13 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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The Perfect Prayer, for God Himself taught us to pray. There we see how merciful He is, He wants us to keep us away of ignorance but to make us truly one with Him.
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Old 5th February 2013, 04:31 PM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
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Default Just a thought

It would be interesting to correlate this beautiful prayer first uttered by Our Lord with that uttered by His Mother, The Magnificat. Perhaps I will do that in my blog in the near future. I think there could be intriguing insights if one looks deeply enough.
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Old 22nd January 2014, 03:14 AM
sammy sammy is offline
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Give us THIS DAY our daily bread. "This day" is implied in the remainder or second half of the prayer but it is not repeated as in - give us this day our daily bread and forgive us (this day) our trespasses as we forgive (this day) those who trespass against us and lead us not (this day) into temptation but deliver us (this day) from evil. The first half of the prayer omits this day because it is praising God who is beyond time and space and place. The second part of the Our Father is in petition of our needs and we find ourselves within time and space and place. Thoughts?
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Old 22nd January 2014, 12:04 PM
js1975 js1975 is offline
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The Catechism has a nice write up on this prayer, very lengthy and detailed. In it they do not directly address your point, but perhaps indirectly they do:

There are 7 petitions in the Our Father:

Quote:
The first three, more theologal, draw us toward the glory of the Father; the last four, as ways toward him, commend our wretchedness to his grace. “Deep calls to deep.”

While not stated, I believe your statement can be implied as we are to be concerned with today:

Quote:
[SIZE=4]Therefore, do not be anxious about tomorrow; for the future day will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its evil.”[/SIZE]

You can read the explanation of the Our Father in the Catechism if you start with #2777. The online Catechism can be found here.

-Jay
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2cor 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, most beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of the flesh and of the spirit, perfecting sanctification in the fear of God.
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  #10  
Old 22nd January 2014, 01:18 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sammy View Post
Give us THIS DAY our daily bread. "This day" is implied in the remainder or second half of the prayer but it is not repeated as in - give us this day our daily bread and forgive us (this day) our trespasses as we forgive (this day) those who trespass against us and lead us not (this day) into temptation but deliver us (this day) from evil. The first half of the prayer omits this day because it is praising God who is beyond time and space and place. The second part of the Our Father is in petition of our needs and we find ourselves within time and space and place. Thoughts?

Good insight, Sammy.

The Our Father is a profound prayer, which is full of meaning.
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