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  #11  
Old 17th August 2007, 09:41 AM
Love The Fisherman
 
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I was taught that when we die our guardian angles being us to Heaven to stand before God (Particular Judgment) and then bring us to Purgatory. It seems that we do not know where these places are and have to be brought to them. Also I read somewhere that our Angles can visit us in Purgatory to encourage and console us. I sometimes wonder if Heaven/Purgatory are subject to Natural Laws (like the Earth). Since God is very much a God of Order it seems very likely and the Angles might have some sort of administrative role. I do not know if the Holy Souls could be affected by natural fire. It seems unlikely.
Tomás
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  #12  
Old 17th August 2007, 12:02 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by Love The Fisherman View Post
I was taught that when we die our guardian angles being us to Heaven to stand before God (Particular Judgment) and then bring us to Purgatory. It seems that we do not know where these places are and have to be brought to them. Also I read somewhere that our Angles can visit us in Purgatory to encourage and console us. I sometimes wonder if Heaven/Purgatory are subject to Natural Laws (like the Earth). Since God is very much a God of Order it seems very likely and the Angles might have some sort of administrative role. I do not know if the Holy Souls could be affected by natural fire. It seems unlikely.
Tomás

The particular judgment does not occur in Heaven. Guardian angels certainly have a role when we are in Purgatory, since they are concerned with the entire process of getting us to Heaven.
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  #13  
Old 18th August 2007, 11:26 PM
The Pines The Pines is offline
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Default Suggested reading regarding Purgatory

Hi CA and everyone,

Try reading "Get Us Out of Here", Maria Simma speaks with Nicky Eltz

Preface of book written by Father Slavko Barbaric, OFM, former spititual director to the visionaries of Medjugorje.

www.medjugorje.org

It is an eye opener.

May you and your families be blessed forever by The Forever Blessed.
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  #14  
Old 24th April 2012, 11:16 PM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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Default soul and purgatory

this are the biblical verses what the other christians or cults(who do not believe in the Divinity of Christ) used to disprove purgatory. They do not believe in purgatory and have their version of soul/afterlife.

At death No purgatory, the Soul remains in the body.

Psalm
{118:25} DALETH. My soul has adhered to the pavement. Revive me according to your word.
Psalms 119:25 My soul clings to the dust; Revive me according to Your word

--- Until when will souls of those who die cling to dust?

Ecclesiastes
{12:7} and the dust returns to its earth, from which it was, and the spirit returns to God, who granted it.

--- the spirit(spirit is breath of God or also known as life) goes back to God

Psalms 44:25
Psalm
{43:25} For our soul has been humbled into the dust. Our belly has been bound to the earth.

--- the soul will remain to the body even if it is already in the form of dust -

John
{3:13} And no one has ascended to heaven, except the one who descended from heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven.

--- no man ascended to heaven(except Jesus) - John 3:13


Ecclesiastes 9:5
“For the living know that they are to die, but the dead no longer know anything. There is no further recompense for them, because all memory of them is lost.

---- the dead knows nothing - Ecclesiastes 9:5


Ecclesiates
{9:6} Likewise, love and hatred and envy have all perished together, nor have they any place in this age and in the work which is done under the sun.


---- the living can't do anything for them - Ecclesiastes 9:6

Job
{14:10} Truly, when a man dies, and has been left unprotected, and has decayed, I ask you where is he?

{14:12} just so, when a man is fallen asleep, he will not rise again, until the heavens are worn away; he will not awaken, nor rise from his sleep.

"...But man dies and is laid away; indeed he breathes his last And where is he? so man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep...'' Job 14:10,12

--- It's easy to understand that there is no purgatory at all, nor is there a need for it.
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  #15  
Old 24th April 2012, 11:42 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Psalm
{118:25} DALETH. My soul has adhered to the pavement. Revive me according to your word.
Psalms 119:25 My soul clings to the dust; Revive me according to Your word

These expressions are figurative; they are poetic, not literal.

Ecclesiastes
{12:7} and the dust returns to its earth, from which it was, and the spirit returns to God, who granted it.

The spirit (soul) returns to God in the sense that we are all judged by God after death.

Psalms 44:25
Psalm
{43:25} For our soul has been humbled into the dust. Our belly has been bound to the earth.

Again, this is figurative, not literal.

John
{3:13} And no one has ascended to heaven, except the one who descended from heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven.

No one has ascended, by his own power, to heaven, other than Christ. Everyone else can only go to Heaven by Him.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
“For the living know that they are to die, but the dead no longer know anything. There is no further recompense for them, because all memory of them is lost.

This refers to the dead from the point of view of the living, not from the point of view of God.
[Matthew]
{22:31} But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken by God, saying to you:
{22:32} ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Ecclesiates
{9:6} Likewise, love and hatred and envy have all perished together, nor have they any place in this age and in the work which is done under the sun.

Again, this refers to the point of view of the living.

Job
{14:10} Truly, when a man dies, and has been left unprotected, and has decayed, I ask you where is he?

{14:12} just so, when a man is fallen asleep, he will not rise again, until the heavens are worn away; he will not awaken, nor rise from his sleep.

"...But man dies and is laid away; indeed he breathes his last And where is he? so man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep...'' Job 14:10,12

The dead cannot rise by their own power. No matter how much time passes, they can only rise by the power of God, just as no one can ascend to heaven by his own power.
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  #16  
Old 25th April 2012, 03:07 PM
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It's sad and annoying to me to see how Protestants brothers and sisters get lost in Bible interpretation, and worst still, when they do it with malice. It is because they are "headless", they don't have a Shepherd, they try to instruct themselves by reading one passage here and another there from Sacred Scripture and then try to interpret every verse literally. They don't interpret the Word of God in light of ALL Sacred Scripture but just from passages here and there, that's why the get lost, very lost. They don't really know the Author; therefore, they don't understand His message.

Regarding Purgatory:

[2 Maccabees 12]
{12:43} And, calling an assembly, he sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem, to be offered for a sacrifice for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously about the resurrection,
{12:44} (for if he had not hoped that those who had fallen would be resurrected, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)
{12:45} and because he considered that those who had fallen asleep with piety had great grace stored up for them.
{12:46} Therefore, it is a holy and beneficial thought to pray on behalf of those who have passed away, so that they may be released from sins.


In Hell, you can not be released from sins.

In Heaven, you have no sin, you are pure, triumphant and enjoying the Veatific Vision of God.

So what does this passage is talking about?

I think this is clear enough.
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  #17  
Old 25th April 2012, 07:33 PM
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Sacredcello Sacredcello is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother View Post
It's sad and annoying to me to see how Protestants brothers and sisters get lost in Bible interpretation, and worst still, when they do it with malice. It is because they are "headless", they don't have a Shepherd, they try to instruct themselves by reading one passage here and another there from Sacred Scripture and then try to interpret every verse literally. They don't interpret the Word of God in light of ALL Sacred Scripture but just from passages here and there, that's why the get lost, very lost. They don't really know the Author; therefore, they don't understand His message.

Regarding Purgatory:

[2 Maccabees 12]
{12:43} And, calling an assembly, he sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem, to be offered for a sacrifice for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously about the resurrection,
{12:44} (for if he had not hoped that those who had fallen would be resurrected, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)
{12:45} and because he considered that those who had fallen asleep with piety had great grace stored up for them.
{12:46} Therefore, it is a holy and beneficial thought to pray on behalf of those who have passed away, so that they may be released from sins.


In Hell, you can not be released from sins.

In Heaven, you have no sin, you are pure, triumphant and enjoying the Veatific Vision of God.

So what does this passage is talking about?

I think this is clear enough.


Very well said, Brother. The above passage from 2 Maccabees was expunged from the Protestant Bible by Martin Luther. So, a Protestant would say that it does not belong in the Bible.

Unfortunately, my nerves just cannot handle conversations with Protestants anymore. I know we are supposed to help them to know the fullness of faith, but I am so saddened by their rejection of sound doctrine, that I can't go there anymore. Instead, I pray for them and donate money to The Coming Home Network which helps Protestant clergy and laymen who are discerning God's will for them to become Catholic.
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  #18  
Old 25th April 2012, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Sacredcello View Post
Very well said, Brother. The above passage from 2 Maccabees was expunged from the Protestant Bible by Martin Luther. So, a Protestant would say that it does not belong in the Bible.

Yes Sac,

Unfortunately they follow a man, in this case Martin Luther (and at this point in time, not even Martin Luther himself - actually), and not really Jesus Christ and His Church, the Church that, guided by Him, originally assembled the N.T. for us all. That is not really seeking the truth.

I'll later post a thread reagarding this issue.
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  #19  
Old 25th April 2012, 10:29 PM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother View Post
It's sad and annoying to me to see how Protestants brothers and sisters get lost in Bible interpretation, and worst still, when they do it with malice. It is because they are "headless", they don't have a Shepherd, they try to instruct themselves by reading one passage here and another there from Sacred Scripture and then try to interpret every verse literally. They don't interpret the Word of God in light of ALL Sacred Scripture but just from passages here and there, that's why the get lost, very lost. They don't really know the Author; therefore, they don't understand His message.

Regarding Purgatory:

[2 Maccabees 12]
{12:43} And, calling an assembly, he sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem, to be offered for a sacrifice for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously about the resurrection,
{12:44} (for if he had not hoped that those who had fallen would be resurrected, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)
{12:45} and because he considered that those who had fallen asleep with piety had great grace stored up for them.
{12:46} Therefore, it is a holy and beneficial thought to pray on behalf of those who have passed away, so that they may be released from sins.


In Hell, you can not be released from sins.

In Heaven, you have no sin, you are pure, triumphant and enjoying the Veatific Vision of God.

So what does this passage is talking about?

I think this is clear enough.

Yaes Brother but this sect is slightly jehovah - they do not admit that the soul is annihilated during death but dies . Psalms 119:25
My soul cleaves to the dust; Revive me according to Your word.They say- Bible says that it stays with the body even the body turns to ashes.

and the :
Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die.

When the body dies the soul also dies. But not destroy - for them the soul is dead when it is sent to hell.

Last edited by myLivingBread : 25th April 2012 at 10:48 PM. Reason: Ezekiel 18:4
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  #20  
Old 26th April 2012, 03:56 AM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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By the way here is their argument

Do not mistook the the soul to be the spirit, for it is the spirit which does not die. It returns to God, who gave it, upon the death of a man.

the spirit(spirit is breath of God or also known as life) goes back to God - Ecclesiastes 12:7


In the Bible, the composition of man is described: "...May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ..." (I Thess. 5:23, NIV)

It is so clear what man is composed of - body, spirit and soul. Obviously, as a man dies, the body returns to dust (earth) from where it was taken.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
"...Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it..."

Job 14:10& 12
"...But man dies and is laid away; indeed he breathes his last And where is he? ...so man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep...."

The soul and spirit are distinct from each other. The spirit returns to God, and the soul does not rise until the heavens are no more. When will the heavens be no more?

"...But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

But the heavens and the earth which now exist are kept in store by the same word, reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
..." (II Peter 3:10,7)

So, until the day of Judgment, the soul does not rise, supporting the fact that the soul indeed clings to dust...

Last edited by myLivingBread : 26th April 2012 at 04:02 AM.
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