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  #11  
Old 29th August 2006, 01:18 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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I like the way you worded that; well said.

I agree that our bodies reflect our virtues and spiritual strengths.
But they will also be a reflection of Christ and we will be given
new gifts, which we did not earn and which we cannot know
in advance. The glories we are given are not merely from our own
merits, but also far beyond what we rightly deserve, because
of Christ and Mary.


Ron
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  #12  
Old 8th September 2006, 01:02 PM
Joan
 
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From the Catholic Catechism:

The dogma of the Holy Trinity

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91

256 St. Gregory of Nazianzus, also called "the Theologian", entrusts this summary of Trinitarian faith to the catechumens of Constantinople:

Above all guard for me this great deposit of faith for which I live and fight, which I want to take with me as a companion, and which makes me bear all evils and despise all pleasures: I mean the profession of faith in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. I entrust it to you today. By it I am soon going to plunge you into water and raise you up from it. I give it to you as the companion and patron of your whole life. I give you but one divinity and power, existing one in three, and containing the three in a distinct way. Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down. . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites. Each person considered in himself is entirely God. . . the three considered together. . . I have not even begun to think of unity when the Trinity bathes me in its splendor. I have not even begun to think of the Trinity when unity grasps me. . .
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  #13  
Old 13th January 2007, 11:07 PM
Rob Rob is offline
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Default New Earth

Ron,

At the end of time God makes a new Heaven and a new Hell both fitting for soul and body. But God also creates a new Earth, what would be the reason for creating a new Earth if all the blessed and damned shall be in Heaven and Hell respectively?

God Bless

Roberto
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  #14  
Old 13th January 2007, 11:35 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Good Question.

I don't know the answer.


Ron
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  #15  
Old 14th January 2007, 10:29 AM
Rob Rob is offline
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Default On New Earth

Ron,

Could the new Earth represent a kind of new "Eden" but in heaven as God's original plan was to create an earthly paradise? This time however, after man's fall, the "garden" is created IN Heaven where men are not subjected to sin anymore. That's how I see it, altough I am not theologian.
The only thing I can say for sure is that the new Earth is the completion of God's plan as He intended it in origin. For God had only ONE plan because He is ONE.
Any thoughts?

Roberto
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  #16  
Old 14th January 2007, 01:05 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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I like the idea of the new earth being a new Eden. That idea has merit.

However, I don't think the new earth can be said to be in heaven. Perhaps it will be close to heaven or adjoined to heaven in some way.

Ron
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  #17  
Old 14th January 2007, 01:41 PM
Rob Rob is offline
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Default On new Heaven and new Earth

The discussion is getting interesting. At this point my next question would be, how do we know that the elects are going to heaven and not to some king of new "Eden" which is close to heaven and therefore on the new Earth? After all, God's original plan for mankind was to live in the Garden. Couldn't the new Jerusalem represent this new garden in new Earth which in fact descends from the clouds:

{22:1} And he showed me the river of the water of life, shining like crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.
{22:2} In the midst of its main street, and on both sides of the river, was the Tree of Life, bearing twelve fruits, offering one fruit for each month, and the leaves of the tree are for the health of the nations.

This seems to represent a new "Eden" on new Earth.

What does the Church teach about Heaven? I don't want to be heretical.

Any thoughts from others?

God bless

Roberto
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  #18  
Old 14th January 2007, 05:21 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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The church teaches definitively that those who die in a state of grace, after Purgatory if need be, go to Heaven and enjoy the Beatific vision.

Certainly, after the general resurrection, the faithful have more and not less than they had before it. Perhaps they enjoy both heaven and earth at that time, since they will then have both bodies and souls.

It would not be correct, though, to say that we will have only an Eden after the general resurrection, and not also the full beatific vision of Heaven as well.


Ron
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  #19  
Old 14th January 2007, 05:40 PM
Rob Rob is offline
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Default New Heaven and New Earth

Right, that's clear.

So to say that after judgement the blessed shall live on a new Earth with the Beatific vision of Heaven forever could be a reasonable but still speculative interpretation of that passage from the Apocalipse.
Perhaps Heaven has only been created for spiritual beings such as angels while creatures with body and soul enjoy both Heaven and Earth. That seems a reasonable point. After all that is what men long for, the lost garden of Eden with the tree of Life in the middle of the Garden plus the Beatific vision of Heaven with all angels and God. Unlike angels we have body and soul.
Of course that is all a speculative interpretation, tought I still feel as if I was missing an important point here.

Anyway thanks for the answer, Ron

Roberto
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  #20  
Old 14th January 2007, 06:50 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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the new Heaven is fitting for body and soul, so it cannot be said that the resurrected just live only on earth (even if you add 'with the beatific vision').

As you say, this is speculative.


Ron
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