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  #21  
Old 22nd November 2010, 01:21 AM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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Ron,

this questions:

How can Mary be exalted ABOVE Christians when the RCC asserts that Peter is the vicar of Christ and HEAD of the church? Mary indeed is part of that church.
(Christians, acording John 1:16, are full of grace)

In the Bible we read that Christ (the Creator God) committed no sin. This point is taught several times. If this is also true of Mary (and she being a created being) why isn't it expressed as it is with Christ? Is the creature being exalted over the Creator? If not, then please explain.

So even though Peter was the "head" another mere human being was above him. Mary is exalted "above" Christian. Peter was a Christian and the "head" of the church and yet Mary is exalted above him
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  #22  
Old 22nd November 2010, 02:15 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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"How can Mary be exalted ABOVE Christians when the RCC asserts that Peter is the vicar of Christ and HEAD of the church? Mary indeed is part of that church."

Peter has the role to be the head of the Church on behalf of Christ.
Mary has a different role, to assist Christ in all that He does for our salvation.
Mary is holier than Peter, but she still cannot have his role.
Each person has their own place in God's plan.
Mary is holier than any other mere human person, but that does not mean that she is above (as if apart from) us. She is united with us in the Church and in Christ.

"In the Bible we read that Christ (the Creator God) committed no sin. This point is taught several times. If this is also true of Mary (and she being a created being) why isn't it expressed as it is with Christ? Is the creature being exalted over the Creator? If not, then please explain. "

Christ is sinless, and Mary is sinless. But Christ in his human nature is still greater than Mary. A baptized infant is sinless, but a holy adult is greater in the eyes of God than a baptized infant.

Christ is also God, whereas Mary is not God. So even though both are sinless, Christ is still above Mary, as Her Creator.

"So even though Peter was the "head" another mere human being was above him. Mary is exalted "above" Christian. Peter was a Christian and the "head" of the church and yet Mary is exalted above him"

Mary was obedient to Joseph, in the holy family, even though she is holier than he is. Similarly, Mary was obedient to Peter and to the Church, even though she was holier than the Pope. She is not simply 'above' -- it is more complex and subtle than that. Saying she is 'above' is an over simplification.

Christ is the head of the Church. The Pope is the Vicar of Christ, i.e. his representative, the person taking his place until he returns. So the Pope is only the head of the Church is a restricted sense.
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  #23  
Old 22nd November 2010, 04:07 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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Mary is the mother of our King, the King of kings and the King of all of us; therefore, she is our Queen.

Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ and we form part of the mystical Body of Christ; therefore, she is our Mother also (including the Pope's).
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  #24  
Old 3rd January 2011, 10:54 PM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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It is not the subject of discussion wether if the Assumption of Mary is biblical or not. Rather, we will discuss if the doctrine really did originate from the apostles and if there are early church fathers who know this doctrine.

You see, Protestants are being criticized that our doctrines are neither apostolic nor historical. Now, let's see if this doctrine conform to the standards of the Roman Catholic doctrine.

Please show me evidences from the early church fathers affirming the Bodily Assumption of Mary.
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  #25  
Old 4th January 2011, 01:54 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myLivingBread View Post
It is not the subject of discussion wether if the Assumption of Mary is biblical or not. Rather, we will discuss if the doctrine really did originate from the apostles and if there are early church fathers who know this doctrine.

You see, Protestants are being criticized that our doctrines are neither apostolic nor historical. Now, let's see if this doctrine conform to the standards of the Roman Catholic doctrine.

Please show me evidences from the early church fathers affirming the Bodily Assumption of Mary.

That is not how Catholic doctrine works. We must be careful in arguing with Protestants not to begin with the same erroneous assumptions that they use. There are important truths that remained implicit in Tradition and Scripture for many centuries before being taught explicitly by the Magisterium. So we don't need to prove that the early Church fathers explicitly taught every doctrine.
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  #26  
Old 4th January 2011, 02:27 AM
Lazarus Lazarus is offline
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I'd been through a lot instances, and all of them proved to be futile in engaging discussions where the Blessed Mother is being attacked - no defense is enough - they are bent on attacking Catholic venerations of our mother in Heaven.

I have lot of my petitions answered through praying Holy Rosary, and whenever a problem is too burdensome, I resort to praying the rosary and I do get a lot of consolation and peace after praying the rosary. This is what I wish everyone to know - devotion to the Blessed Mother helps a lot!
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  #27  
Old 4th January 2011, 03:45 AM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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they said:
If that's the case, stop demanding from Protestants if our doctrines are aligned with the early church fathers. It is hypocrisy on your part.

Therefore, your doctrinal system is not a tripod (Scripture, Tradition, and Magisterium). It's sola ecclessia or church alone. Why? For this doctrine alone, you won't be able to produce any evidences from the early church fathers or tradition for that matter. Your magisterium made it all up overtime.
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  #28  
Old 4th January 2011, 12:37 PM
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This is an argument that we cannot win in most instances. Case in point: there are several Protestant denominations that use the Nicene Creed in their worship services. They profess their belief in the phrase,"conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary....", and repeat it Sunday after Sunday and still they belabor their point. It makes no sense, but people throw sensibility out the window for age-old arguments. It is simply ignorance fostered by prejudicial thinking. You can't win, but you can pray.
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  #29  
Old 4th January 2011, 01:06 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myLivingBread View Post
they said:
If that's the case, stop demanding from Protestants if our doctrines are aligned with the early church fathers. It is hypocrisy on your part.

Therefore, your doctrinal system is not a tripod (Scripture, Tradition, and Magisterium). It's sola ecclessia or church alone. Why? For this doctrine alone, you won't be able to produce any evidences from the early church fathers or tradition for that matter. Your magisterium made it all up overtime.

We believe truths that are implicit in Tradition and Scripture. The Pope is the successor to Peter, and the other Bishops are the successors to the other Apostles. Whoever rejects the teaching of the Pope and the Bishops rejects the teaching of the Apostles chosen by Christ.
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  #30  
Old 4th January 2011, 05:22 PM
garabandalg garabandalg is offline
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Our Blessed Mother needs no defense, yet our love for Her should drive us to always defend Her Name and Place in Heaven

She is The First Tabernacle which brought Christ to Us.

She is all about humility, and obedience, and is thus our perfect model as followers of Our Lord

It is folly to compare Peter to Mary in that, in my humble opinion, They each serve different roles in our Faith. The devil thrives in such foolishness to divide, confuse, and conquer us.

Devotion to Our Lady is a powerful tool in finding salvation. I do not think that we can accurately say that about St. Peter.

I have a final question: We reach so much of Paul's words, what about the idea that, in some ways, He is as important to our faith as Peter?
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