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  #1  
Old 3rd October 2008, 06:21 PM
ExCelciuS ExCelciuS is offline
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Default What do you think about this

Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Jesus

(Theology part from the full article)

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Theology

Islamic texts regard Jesus as a righteous messenger of God, and reject him as being God or the begotten Son of God. This belief, according to Islam, is tantamount to shirk, or the association of partners with God; and thereby a rejection of God's divine oneness (tawhid).(note[24])
A verse from the Qur'an reads:
Quote:
In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against God, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For God hath power over all things
.[Qur'an 5:17].(note[25])

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is similarly rejected in Islam. Such notions of the divinity of Jesus, Muslims state, resulted from human interpolations of God's revelation.(note[24]) Islam views Jesus as an ordinary human being who preached that salvation came through submission to God's will and worshiping God alone. Thus, Jesus is considered in Islam to have been a Muslim, as with all prophets in Islam.(note[26])

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I have bolded a sentence in quoted text above (Qur'an 5:17), what do you think of this sentence? Does it mean in the muslim thought, we are the blasphemer that should be obliterated from this earth? (sorry, may sound harsh)
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  #2  
Old 3rd October 2008, 06:42 PM
Rob Rob is offline
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In the eyes of the muslim faith, claiming that Jesus is God is a blasphemy. However the muslim faith does also teach that a muslim should have respect for the Jews and Christians. The word "infedel" properly interpreted refers to those who have no formal religion, therefore pagans.
When the Quran tells people to get rid of infedels, it refers to pagans, in a similar manner God ordered the Jews to get rid of pagans and idolaters.

A devout muslim who interprets the Quran prayerfully can reconcile his faith and live peacefully along with Christians and Jews. Extremists don't because they are not devout to the muslim faith but are devout to their wordly ideas.
In any case it is not our concern to know what muslims think about our Faith, the Quran is not inspired by God, and can be regarded as an apocryphal book, it contains some truths and some errors.
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  #3  
Old 3rd October 2008, 07:43 PM
ExCelciuS ExCelciuS is offline
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Default Good Explanation

Hmm, good explanation Rob.
So, it's not the religion or the teaching, but it's the man who misused it. I see.
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  #4  
Old 3rd October 2008, 11:29 PM
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Respectfully I beg to differ on Islam. It is not so cut and dry that a devout muslim can live in harmony with non-muslims, and certainly their version of harmony is different from the west's.

In Islam, the world is divided into exactly two parts, dar-al-Islam and dar-al-Haarb. The house of Islam and the house of war. This is a required belief. There is no middle ground. You are either part of Islam or you are fighting it, and Islam is required to convert it to Islam. You can be an inferior religion, but you must pay a tax/tribute to Islam as a way of conceding it's superiority. You cannot spread your faith or convert others. You cannot build churches. Your word cannot be used in court against a muslim, therefor you lose most legal rights in a dispute. A muslim retains a much higher status than you. If you are muslim and decide to become Christian, the penalty is death.

These are not extremist views, history and current events overwhelmingly show this, as well as the Koran.

Some muslim apologists will state (depending on the audience) that the Koran says "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error" (Qur'an 2:256) and (Qur'an 18:29) However, in Islam, many "truths" from God have been abrogated over the developing centuries. this means that a new meaning, sometimes even being directly opposite of the original, have now been issued by God and must be followed. The sura above has been abrogated by this one:

"Then, when the sacred months are drawn away, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent, and perform the prayer, and pay the alms, then let them go their way; God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate."

Obviously, this is not peaceful. In addition, democracy is not compatible with true Islam. They do not believe in freedom of the person, because that person may choose sin. Therefor, it is the duty of Islam to prevent that. The religion is completely intertwined with political structure and cannot be separated as Christianity and Judaism can be (for better or worse).

If you research the scholars and Imams that have written about the tenets of the faith over the past 1400 years, you will probably come up with a ration of better than 97% in favor of non-harmony.

And if one of the apologists still insists that is not the case, simply watch the news for which belief is in practice in most of the world. It is 2008, and Egypt and Saudi Arabia still behead people for apostasy. Afghanistan, after creating a new constitution in 2003 or so, supposedly now enlightened to the modern world of democracy and human rights, sentenced a citizen to death for becoming a Christian. This is by their court system and law, not by a crowd of thugs. He only survived because the US pressured Karzai to let the guy go and in exchange, the US would see that the guy left his country and family for good, never to be allowed back in on penalty of death.

Not meaning to be a basher, but I don't like seeing misinformation about religions. It is like when Mormons claim to be Christians.
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  #5  
Old 3rd October 2008, 11:43 PM
Bomber
 
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Sorry, I meant to give a reference for that. This is from "Apostasy in Islam"/wikipedia.



Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ارتداد, irtidād or ridda) is commonly defined as the rejection of Islam in word or deed by a person who has been a Muslim.

The four major Sunni and the one major Shia Madh'hab (schools of Islamic jurisprudence) agree that a sane adult male apostate must be executed.[1] They differ on the punishment for a female apostate - some schools calling for death and others for imprisonment. According to Wael Hallaq nothing of the apostasy law are derived from the Qur'an,[2] although the jurist al-Shafi'i interpreted the Qu'ranic verse 2:217 as providing the main evidence for apostasy being a capital crime in Islam.[3]

A minority of medieval Islamic jurists, such as Hanafi jurist Sarakhsi,[4] Maliki jurist Abu al-Walid al-Baji, and Hanbali jurist Ibn Taymiyyah,[5] and some contemporary Islamic jurists, such as Shafi`i Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa[6][7] and Shi'a Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri,[8] argued or issued fatwas that either the changing of religion is not punishable or is only punishable under restricted circumstances, but these minority opinions have not found broad acceptance among the majority of Islamic scholars.[9][10][11][12]


What constitutes apostasy in Islam

Attributes of apostasy according to some Muslims include:

Regarding monotheism and polytheism

* A public declaration or conduct that denies Islam, its beliefs, symbols or its principal actors such as statements as "I believe in gods other than Allah", or "God has a material form."
* Worshiping an idol
* Trinity - God is three in One; God the Father, God the Son, Holy Spirit, or Al lat, Al'Uzza and Manat (known as the daughters of Allah (God) to the pre-Islamic Arabs). In Islam, God does not beget nor is He begotten (Al-Ikhlas) and He alone has the right to be worshiped (Surah Al-Fatihah)
* Denying the existence of God
* Saying the world has always existed from eternity, in such a way that it denies the existence of God as a creator
* Saying that the world is everlasting and without end, in such a way that it could be interpreted as a denial of resurrection
* Believing in reincarnation into this world, in such a way that it could be interpreted as a denial of resurrection.

Regarding prophethood of Muhammad

* Rejecting Muhammad's claim to be a prophet, or denying the concept of prophethood.
* Implying that one can become a prophet through spiritual exercise, since that would imply the possibility of a prophet after Muhammad.
* Saying that there were prophets after Muhammad.
* Cursing Muhammad.
* Questioning the perfection of Muhammad's knowledge or defaming his character, morals, virtues, or faith.

Regarding beliefs

* Any clearly blasphemous action, such as burning the Qur'an out of contempt, and every manner of soiling it out of contempt or hatred. The same may also apply to the Hadiths books.
* Contradicting the positions that are upheld by a consensus (ijma) of Muslim scholars (ulema), such as saying that prayers or fasting are not obligatory, or that the prohibition of adultery does not have to be followed. Not following these doctrines does not make one an apostate, but saying they need not be followed does.
* Denying that the books before Islam (i.e. Christian and Jewish Scriptures) come from Allah (God) or denying their existence - it's part of the 10 tenets of Faith in Islam to respect those Scriptures, as they also came from God.
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  #6  
Old 4th October 2008, 01:01 AM
Rob Rob is offline
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I still believe it's a matter of interpretation; most of those so called "laws" concern the infedels which are pagans or idolaters, at least at the time in which the Quran was written. Mohammed did not fight against christians, and he did not teach to kill christians or jews. Beside muslims regard the Bible as inspired by God.
In truth every person who follows the moral law can be saved, even tought he belongs to another religion (and is baptised). This law is based primarily on the love of God and neighbour. If someone truly loves God, then he loves his neighbour, regardless of his religion. I think that if a devout muslim truly loves God, then many of the teachings of his faith come in harmony with this love of the neighbour.
St. Francis was able to preach christianity in a muslim area, so much was the sultan impressed by his Faith, that he gave St. Francis permission to do so.

Islam hasn't got Scripture and Magisterium, so it is easily influenced by society and world, therefore there are and will always be different opinions across islamic scholars. I think that after the Warning, but especially during the era of peace of the Angelic Shepherd, islam will conform more to his original teachings, which are primarily based on the love of God. Centuries later it will slip back to conform to the world and ideas of society.
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  #7  
Old 4th October 2008, 03:08 AM
js1975 js1975 is offline
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I was always on the fence because I just didn't know. A while back I read an article, "endless Jihad", on Catholic.com. It has changed my perspective, it makes sense, and I agree mostly with Bomber. There may be some good holy people who are Muslim, but it is only because they do not follow all of the tenets of their faith, making them less than complete Muslims.

http://www.catholic.com/library/endless_jihad.asp
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  #8  
Old 4th October 2008, 12:03 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Islam does not have a Magisterium or a Pope or the equivalent, so as in Protestantism, the meaning of the Koran and the tenets of their faith are not fixed. There are different Muslims with different interpretations, and no authoritative source of doctrine or dogma.

However, it is clear that for a Muslim to be holy, he must interpret his faith in a way that is not always in agreement with the letter of the text.
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Old 4th October 2008, 02:21 PM
Jeremiah Jeremiah is offline
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An organization has been mailing out free dvd's through the mail of a film called obsession. It talks about the global threat of jihad. They mention that fifteen percent of the muslim world adheres to the ideology of jihad. This amounts to about the same number of people inhabiting the USA. They show the striking similiarity between the movement of the nazi's and jihad. They mention that jihad has more potential to do greater harm than the nazi's because it is a faith based movement. My question is how can there be enough unrepentant people after the warning that they can go forward with this and take over a whole continent and part of another one?. The warning will convince them that what they believe is evil right?.
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  #10  
Old 4th October 2008, 05:33 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremiah View Post
An organization has been mailing out free dvd's through the mail of a film called obsession. It talks about the global threat of jihad. They mention that fifteen percent of the muslim world adheres to the ideology of jihad. This amounts to about the same number of people inhabiting the USA. They show the striking similiarity between the movement of the nazi's and jihad. They mention that jihad has more potential to do greater harm than the nazi's because it is a faith based movement. My question is how can there be enough unrepentant people after the warning that they can go forward with this and take over a whole continent and part of another one?. The warning will convince them that what they believe is evil right?.

Many persons will reject the gift of repentance offered at the Warning. And some who accept it will later backslide into sin again.

Catholics have the advantage of having the Sacraments and the teachings of the Church. Protestants have the Bible. Jews have the OT and the examples of the Patriarchs. But Muslims do not have Sacraments or the guidance of the Magisterium. So it is much harder to be holy if you are a Muslim. This is why the areas of the world where Islam predominates will benefit the least from the Warning.
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