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  #21  
Old 29th May 2009, 05:07 AM
TheGiftOfLife
 
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Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
The phrase 'pray to' has more than one meaning. When applied to God it refers to an act of worship whereby we speak to God as to our ultimate end. When applied to Angels and Saints in Heaven, it refers to an act of veneration whereby we speak to those who are closest to God (who have the beatific vision of God), as mediators between us and our final end, God.

The early Church NEVER prayed to Mary or Joseph or any Saint while they were still alive on this earth, but only after they entered into Heaven.

Ron, I need to know the first reference of the earliest christian via writing of prayer to martyrs. - This is very improtant - Thanks
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  #22  
Old 29th May 2009, 11:52 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Ron, I need to know the first reference of the earliest christian via writing of prayer to martyrs. - This is very improtant - Thanks

I don't know. I looked for some references on this, but could not find anything.
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  #23  
Old 29th May 2009, 02:49 PM
js1975 js1975 is offline
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Here are some quotes and references I came across, hope it helps you. There is much more in this link: The Intercession of Saints

"Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day" (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).

"By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name" (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).

Also, try Praying to the Saints.

Both are Catholic.com resources. I personally have found that they have a good library of apologetics. The reasoning is that some of their apologists were devout Protestant Christians, and slowly began challenging their beliefs until they came to Catholicism. They use the angle that while early writings of the church may not be infallible, it is still helpful for insightful understanding of what the church believed at the beginning.

-jay
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2cor 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, most beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of the flesh and of the spirit, perfecting sanctification in the fear of God.
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  #24  
Old 29th May 2009, 11:20 PM
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Thanks a million!
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  #25  
Old 5th September 2010, 05:55 AM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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Default John 3: 16 interpretation

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world He gave His only Son, For whosever BELIEVE in Him will NOT perish but will have ETERNAL life".

according to this protestant

"it seems to me that this is SOLA FIDE but that is contradictory to what the R.Catholic Church teaches. So how can I interpret it that is not contradicting the teaching of the R.Catholic Church?"

Catholic apologist said:

The Catholic Church has no verse by verse interpretation of the Bible. According to James Akin there are only less than 7 verses in the Bible which has been interpreted by the Church officially.

protestant said:

"How can a Roman Catholic interpret John 3:16? As you (R.Catholics) stated above that there are no verse by verse official interpretation we can use logic and literal interpretation. So can we apply that on John 3:16,18?"
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  #26  
Old 5th September 2010, 12:21 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by myLivingBread View Post
Catholic apologist said:

The Catholic Church has no verse by verse interpretation of the Bible. According to James Akin there are only less than 7 verses in the Bible which has been interpreted by the Church officially.

protestant said:

"How can a Roman Catholic interpret John 3:16? As you (R.Catholics) stated above that there are no verse by verse official interpretation we can use logic and literal interpretation. So can we apply that on John 3:16,18?"

{3:16} Sic enim Deus dilexit mundum, ut Filium suum unigenitum daret: ut omnis, qui credit in eum, non pereat, sed habeat vitam æternam.
{3:16} For God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that all who believe in him may not perish, but may have eternal life.

The Latin has the verbs 'to perish' and 'to have' in the subjective tense, meaning 'may not perish' and 'may have'. The text does not say 'will have' as if faith alone determined salvation. The Greek text also has both verbs in the subjective tense (UBS text, Majority Text, and Textus Receptus agree).

Akin is completely wrong in his claim that the Magisterium has only ever given an official intepretation of 7 verses. There are numerous magisterial documents that cite verses and explain their meaning as an act of the Magisterium, including Concilar documents, Papal Encyclicals, documents of the Holy See. Nearly every magisterial document of any length cites Scripture and gives an interpretation as an act of the Magisterium.

We do not use logic and literal interpretation. We rely on the teachings of Tradition, of other Scripture passages, and of the Magisterium in order to understand the meaning of any verse.
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  #27  
Old 5th September 2010, 05:24 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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{7:21} Not all who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven. But whoever does the will of my Father, who is in heaven, the same shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

{15:8} ‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

Notice that St. Paul had a strong Faith in our Lord, preaching His Word, etc., yet:

[1 Corinthians 4]
{4:4} For I have nothing on my conscience. But I am not justified by this. For the Lord is the One who judges me.

Not just because one has Faith in Christ and believes in Him, means that we are "already saved", we must be constant in our love and works of Christ all the days of our lives by putting in practice and, thus, being productive to Him (let's remember the parable of the talents). Also:

[Philippians 3]
{3:9} and so that you may be found in him, not having my justice, which is of the law, but that which is of the faith of Christ Jesus, the justice within faith, which is of God.
{3:10} So shall I know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his Passion, having been fashioned according to his death,
{3:11} if, by some means, I might attain to the resurrection which is from the dead.
{3:12} It is not as though I have already received this, or were already perfect. But rather I pursue, so that by some means I might attain, that in which I have already been attained by Christ Jesus.
{3:13} Brothers, I do not consider that I have already attained this. Instead, I do one thing: forgetting those things that are behind, and extending myself toward those things that are ahead,

Last edited by Brother : 5th September 2010 at 05:29 PM.
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  #28  
Old 28th September 2010, 06:30 AM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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Default follow up question Ron.

Let's go back to the topic.. What's the topic set by Jesus on John 3 (specifically on verse 16)? Is it about the revelation of God? Final judge regarding faith and practice? Or is it about the Godhead? Nicodemus will not be ready about discussion about SolaSciptura, Holy Trinity or the virgin birth.. He need salvation (regenaration and/or santification) for him to understand those things? An unsaved man cannot understand divine things.. He need to be "born again" (verse3) (or to be saved) first before anything else.. And how can he be save..? That's verse 16 .... Understanding Trinity, virgin birth and SS cannot save Nicodemus... Now can the sacraments (as taught by the Roman Catholic Church) save him?

1) How can we get God's grace? Is it through sacraments? Or through faith?

2) Before we partake the sacraments, do we need to be saved first?

3) If ever if I am not yet saved will I understand the teachings of the sacraments?
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  #29  
Old 28th September 2010, 12:28 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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{3:16} For God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that all who believe in him may not perish, but may have eternal life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by myLivingBread View Post
Let's go back to the topic.. What's the topic set by Jesus on John 3 (specifically on verse 16)? Is it about the revelation of God? Final judge regarding faith and practice? Or is it about the Godhead? Nicodemus will not be ready about discussion about SolaSciptura, Holy Trinity or the virgin birth.. He need salvation (regenaration and/or santification) for him to understand those things? An unsaved man cannot understand divine things.. He need to be "born again" (verse3) (or to be saved) first before anything else.. And how can he be save..? That's verse 16 .... Understanding Trinity, virgin birth and SS cannot save Nicodemus... Now can the sacraments (as taught by the Roman Catholic Church) save him?

No, a person does not need to have received sanctifying grace in order to understand (in so far as mysteries can be understood) the truths of the Faith. Reason and grace are both available to persons prior to justification by Baptism, which grants sanctifying grace. No, being born again by Baptism (when sanctifying grace is received) is not needed to receive and cooperate with actual graces. Although a full cooperation with grace either grants sanctifying grace by a Baptism of desire, or does not occur until after sanctifying grace in Baptism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by myLivingBread View Post
1) How can we get God's grace? Is it through sacraments? Or through faith?

Actual grace occurs from time to time, for anyone, even persons not in a state of grace. Sanctifying grace is given by Baptism, either the formal Sacrament of Baptism, or a baptism of blood or of desire. Actual graces occur very many times in life, in many different ways: through prayer, sacraments, love, faith, hope, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by myLivingBread View Post
2) Before we partake the sacraments, do we need to be saved first?

Baptism is the first Sacrament, before all other Sacraments. Baptism is the beginning of salvation; it is the sacrament of justification. We do not need to be saved prior to Baptism. We can cooperate with grace before receiving the state of grace in Baptism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by myLivingBread View Post
3) If ever if I am not yet saved will I understand the teachings of the sacraments?

Yes, by reason and actual graces a person can understand prior to being Baptised.
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  #30  
Old 30th November 2010, 01:55 PM
ExCelciuS ExCelciuS is offline
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Smile Protestant music

I have found that some Protestant music is so embracing..., touching, and stunningly good... especially the lyric... its lyric is so beautiful, touching, and embracing my faith..., somehow it refreshes my faith and emotion to be more alive...

Ron, is it okay to socialize with them in their young organization.., having singing together in their event..., I find this is different experience than in our Church...

I know our Church is The True One, but somehow theirs have some plus factor than our Church...

It's like having a vacation of faith when singing and praying, glorifying Lord Jesus with them...

This sensation is different... and I think it's good..., have some spiritual rejuvenating effects...

But above all I'll keep my Catholic faith...
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