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  #1  
Old 13th February 2010, 06:22 PM
zouxi zouxi is offline
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Default Material universe and heaven

Greetings Ron,

As the bible states, in genesis particulary, God created heaven and earth. However a controversial point arises and a disagreement is noticed between theologians on whether heaven (i;e: the non material form of life) was created before or at the same time with the material universe.

Many decent theologians, including fathers of the church believe that God created heaven before the material universe, among these theologions St.Thomas Acquinas, who believed that God created angels to golorify him and to assist him in the creation of the material universe, therefore there must have been a lapse of time (regardless of its length) between the creation of heaven and the creation of the material universe.

Nonetheless, other notable theologians as well (catholics but mainly protestants), believe that God created heaven and the material universe at the same time, they base their theory on the bible itslef, and on the passage found in genesis that God created heaven and earth, genesis could have included that God created heaven then earth if the latter was created later on, they add.

I need your valuable insight regarding this subject,

Many thanks to your readiness to answer promptly our questions

Last edited by zouxi : 13th February 2010 at 06:25 PM.
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  #2  
Old 13th February 2010, 09:14 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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It is an open theological question. Here is my opinion.

[Genesis 1]
{1:1} In the beginning, God created heaven and earth.
{1:2} But the earth was empty and unoccupied, and darknesses were over the face of the abyss; and so the Spirit of God was brought over the waters.
{1:3} And God said, “Let there be light.” And light became.

In one sense, Heaven is the place where the blessed have the Beatific Vision of God. This Heaven is beyond Time and Place; it has a beginning and an end (when the new Heaven and new earth are created). But it is beyond Time, and so one cannot say 'when' it was created. However, we can consider when persons first entered Heaven from time.

When the angels were created, they were not in Heaven. No one can have the Beatific Vision of God and no one can go to Heaven, not even angels, except through Christ. The angels were at first in heaven in the sense of the heavens. They were created in a state of sanctifying grace, so that their souls were ordered toward God as the highest good. They were all sinless for some length of time -- though time for angels is not the same as for human persons (because they are pure spirit).

The angels were tested by God, by being shown the plan of God for humanity, that God would become a man, and suffer and die. Human persons are part spirit and part matter; whereas angels are pure spirit. So angels have a greater nature. Some angels sinned out of pride, when asked to worship God made man, because human nature is less than angelic nature. The humble holy angels worshipped Christ. Thereafter, they entered Heaven and were given the Beatific Vision of God. But Satan and the rest of the angels refused to worship Christ, and so they lost the state of grace and became devils.

So in order for the angels to even understand the test, they would have to have some knowledge of what matter is, and of the various lower animals, so that they could then be given to understand that mankind would be created (an animal with a rational soul), and that God would become man. Therefore, the material universe was created before the test whereby some angels fell from grace, and the rest of the angels entered Heaven.

First, God created the angels, and secondly the material universe, and thirdly mankind. For God would not begin creation with what is lesser, but with what is greater. Also God acts in the material universe often through the angels, who are ministers of His providence. And so the angels had to be created first, so that they would then assist in the unfolding of the material universe.

And once the angels were created, then they were shown the first part of God's plan, to create the material universe. And they were each given a role in that plan for the material universe, to guide its development over a long period of time. Hence, Satan is also called Lucifer, because of his original role in the material universe, having something to do with light.

Some length of time occurred before the angels were tested by God by being shown the plan of God to become man (spirit and matter). When they were tested, and some fell, this was before the creation of mankind. For Adam and Eve were tempted in Paradise by a fallen angel (Satan).

Those angel who fell from grace and became devils were not always devils. When they were created by God, they were sinless and holy and in a state of grace. And they continued in that state perhaps for a very long time, perhaps even billions of years, as the Universe unfolded. And this explains why, after falling from grace, there is no possibility for a devil to repent and return to grace (as human persons may do). For they were holy and in a state of grace, having some knowledge of God (though not the Beatific Vision), for a very long time. And yet they chose pride over God.

But the above is my theological opinion. It is an open question.
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  #3  
Old 13th February 2010, 10:35 PM
zouxi zouxi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
It is an open theological question. Here is my opinion.

[Genesis 1]
{1:1} In the beginning, God created heaven and earth.
{1:2} But the earth was empty and unoccupied, and darknesses were over the face of the abyss; and so the Spirit of God was brought over the waters.
{1:3} And God said, “Let there be light.” And light became.

In one sense, Heaven is the place where the blessed have the Beatific Vision of God. This Heaven is beyond Time and Place; it has a beginning and an end (when the new Heaven and new earth are created). But it is beyond Time, and so one cannot say 'when' it was created. However, we can consider when persons first entered Heaven from time.

When the angels were created, they were not in Heaven. No one can have the Beatific Vision of God and no one can go to Heaven, not even angels, except through Christ. The angels were at first in heaven in the sense of the heavens. They were created in a state of sanctifying grace, so that their souls were ordered toward God as the highest good. They were all sinless for some length of time -- though time for angels is not the same as for human persons (because they are pure spirit).

The angels were tested by God, by being shown the plan of God for humanity, that God would become a man, and suffer and die. Human persons are part spirit and part matter; whereas angels are pure spirit. So angels have a greater nature. Some angels sinned out of pride, when asked to worship God made man, because human nature is less than angelic nature. The humble holy angels worshipped Christ. Thereafter, they entered Heaven and were given the Beatific Vision of God. But Satan and the rest of the angels refused to worship Christ, and so they lost the state of grace and became devils.

So in order for the angels to even understand the test, they would have to have some knowledge of what matter is, and of the various lower animals, so that they could then be given to understand that mankind would be created (an animal with a rational soul), and that God would become man. Therefore, the material universe was created before the test whereby some angels fell from grace, and the rest of the angels entered Heaven.

First, God created the angels, and secondly the material universe, and thirdly mankind. For God would not begin creation with what is lesser, but with what is greater. Also God acts in the material universe often through the angels, who are ministers of His providence. And so the angels had to be created first, so that they would then assist in the unfolding of the material universe.

And once the angels were created, then they were shown the first part of God's plan, to create the material universe. And they were each given a role in that plan for the material universe, to guide its development over a long period of time. Hence, Satan is also called Lucifer, because of his original role in the material universe, having something to do with light.

Some length of time occurred before the angels were tested by God by being shown the plan of God to become man (spirit and matter). When they were tested, and some fell, this was before the creation of mankind. For Adam and Eve were tempted in Paradise by a fallen angel (Satan).

Those angel who fell from grace and became devils were not always devils. When they were created by God, they were sinless and holy and in a state of grace. And they continued in that state perhaps for a very long time, perhaps even billions of years, as the Universe unfolded. And this explains why, after falling from grace, there is no possibility for a devil to repent and return to grace (as human persons may do). For they were holy and in a state of grace, having some knowledge of God (though not the Beatific Vision), for a very long time. And yet they chose pride over God.

But the above is my theological opinion. It is an open question.

Thank you Ron, very valuable and informative insight indeed, you are in total conformity with St. Thomas opinion, along with many fathers of the church in this particular subject.

Apparently protestants tend to disagree on this matter, because they base all their understanding of creation on scripture literally without giving any room for interpretation.

So the word God created heaven and earth doesn't imply a chronological order here (two acts going in simultaneously), but rather a mere explanation of the fact of creation, right?

Last edited by zouxi : 13th February 2010 at 10:38 PM.
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  #4  
Old 13th February 2010, 11:01 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zouxi View Post
So the word God created heaven and earth doesn't imply a chronological order here (two acts going in simultaneously), but rather a mere explanation of the fact of creation, right?

I think that there is a chronological order.

God created heaven in the sense of the angels and the spiritual realm (heaven).
Then next He created the material universe ('earth')

Heaven, in the sense of the place of the Beatific Vision, was created outside of Time.
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  #5  
Old 13th February 2010, 11:10 PM
zouxi zouxi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
I think that there is a chronological order.

God created heaven in the sense of the angels and the spiritual realm (heaven).
Then next He created the material universe ('earth')

Heaven, in the sense of the place of the Beatific Vision, was created outside of Time.

Thanks Ron
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Old 17th April 2010, 06:34 PM
zouxi zouxi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
It is an open theological question. Here is my opinion.

[Genesis 1]
{1:1} In the beginning, God created heaven and earth.
{1:2} But the earth was empty and unoccupied, and darknesses were over the face of the abyss; and so the Spirit of God was brought over the waters.
{1:3} And God said, “Let there be light.” And light became.

In one sense, Heaven is the place where the blessed have the Beatific Vision of God. This Heaven is beyond Time and Place; it has a beginning and an end (when the new Heaven and new earth are created). But it is beyond Time, and so one cannot say 'when' it was created. However, we can consider when persons first entered Heaven from time.

When the angels were created, they were not in Heaven. No one can have the Beatific Vision of God and no one can go to Heaven, not even angels, except through Christ. The angels were at first in heaven in the sense of the heavens. They were created in a state of sanctifying grace, so that their souls were ordered toward God as the highest good. They were all sinless for some length of time -- though time for angels is not the same as for human persons (because they are pure spirit).

The angels were tested by God, by being shown the plan of God for humanity, that God would become a man, and suffer and die. Human persons are part spirit and part matter; whereas angels are pure spirit. So angels have a greater nature. Some angels sinned out of pride, when asked to worship God made man, because human nature is less than angelic nature. The humble holy angels worshipped Christ. Thereafter, they entered Heaven and were given the Beatific Vision of God. But Satan and the rest of the angels refused to worship Christ, and so they lost the state of grace and became devils.

So in order for the angels to even understand the test, they would have to have some knowledge of what matter is, and of the various lower animals, so that they could then be given to understand that mankind would be created (an animal with a rational soul), and that God would become man. Therefore, the material universe was created before the test whereby some angels fell from grace, and the rest of the angels entered Heaven.

First, God created the angels, and secondly the material universe, and thirdly mankind. For God would not begin creation with what is lesser, but with what is greater. Also God acts in the material universe often through the angels, who are ministers of His providence. And so the angels had to be created first, so that they would then assist in the unfolding of the material universe.

And once the angels were created, then they were shown the first part of God's plan, to create the material universe. And they were each given a role in that plan for the material universe, to guide its development over a long period of time. Hence, Satan is also called Lucifer, because of his original role in the material universe, having something to do with light.

Some length of time occurred before the angels were tested by God by being shown the plan of God to become man (spirit and matter). When they were tested, and some fell, this was before the creation of mankind. For Adam and Eve were tempted in Paradise by a fallen angel (Satan).

Those angel who fell from grace and became devils were not always devils. When they were created by God, they were sinless and holy and in a state of grace. And they continued in that state perhaps for a very long time, perhaps even billions of years, as the Universe unfolded. And this explains why, after falling from grace, there is no possibility for a devil to repent and return to grace (as human persons may do). For they were holy and in a state of grace, having some knowledge of God (though not the Beatific Vision), for a very long time. And yet they chose pride over God.

But the above is my theological opinion. It is an open question.

Ron, i was reading st. Bridget revelations and i found out that you are 100% right in the above opinion, jesus told st. bridget the folowing:

Answer to the second question. ”As to why I gave the angel a spirit without a body, I answer: I created spirits in the beginning, before times and ages, so that they might rejoice in my goodness and glory according to my will and of their own free choice. Some of them became proud and turned good into evil for themselves, making disordered use of their free will. They fell accordingly, because there was nothing evil in nature or creation except the disorder of self-will. Other spirits chose to remain in humility under me their God; accordingly, they earned a state of everlasting stability, for it is right and just that I, God, who am uncreated spirit and creator and Lord of all things, should have spirits serving me that are more subtle and swift than other creatures.
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Old 20th December 2010, 12:40 AM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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Are we the centrist species of the universes?
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Old 20th December 2010, 12:42 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Are we the centrist species of the universes?

I don't understand the question.
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Old 20th December 2010, 12:46 AM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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I don't understand the question.

I mean the material universe was created mainly for us humanity?
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Old 20th December 2010, 01:51 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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I mean the material universe was created mainly for us humanity?

Yes. It is tenable that maybe there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. But it is not clear what the significance of that would be in theology.
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