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  #1  
Old 24th August 2010, 05:06 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default The Eucharist: Is it Jesus or is it the Trinity?

This question pertains to the Incarnation.

The Second Person of the Trinity became incarnate; the First and Third Persons did not become Incarnate. However, the one Divine Nature of God is the Three Persons, and the Three Persons are the one Divine Nature. So the Second Person, in becoming Incarnate, cannot separate His Personhood from the Divine Nature. Therefore, we correctly say that Jesus Incarnate has two natures: a human nature (body and soul) and the Divine Nature.

But since the Divine Nature is One and the Three Persons are the one Nature, how is it that all Three Persons are not Incarnate?

My answer is that the Three Persons choose a certain distinction which is fitting to Them, but not required of Them. They choose that only the Second Person will be Incarnate, even though the one Divine Nature is united to His human nature. Therefore, the Father and Spirit choose not to act in the human nature of Christ.

The Three Persons make this distinction because it is a fitting reflection of the distinction between the Three Person, that is to say, that fundamental distinction which is the basis for Personhood in the Divine Nature: the Father does not proceed; the Son proceeds only from the Father; the Spirit proceeds primarily from the Father and secondarily from the Son. So the Father sends the Son to become Incarnate by the Spirit. And the Son next sends the Spirit to create the Church. If all Three Persons became Incarnate, then this distinction between the different roles of each Person in salvation would be erased.

But there is nothing that prevents the Father, or the Spirit, or all Three Persons together, from becoming Incarnate, as if this were impossible. It is simply more fitting for only the Son to become Incarnate, because of the relationship between the Three Persons in the One Divine Nature.

The Eucharist is Jesus Christ Incarnate, in His human nature and Divine Nature. And yet the other Two Persons of the Divine Nature are not incarnate in the Eucharist. All Three Persons are present wherever one Person is present. So, in this sense, the Father and Spirit are present with Jesus in the Eucharist. But, by a choice of the Trinity, only the Second Person is Incarnate. So, in that sense, the Eucharist is Jesus alone.
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Old 24th August 2010, 07:49 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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The reason why God (the Second Person of the Trinity) became incarnate was to redeem us. I don't think God would have to become Incarnate if Adam or Eve, and therefore humanity, have not fallen from grace.

It was not fitting for all three Persons of the Trinity to become Incarnate and each one of Them suffer a Passion (three Passions) as humans here on this earth. It is not even necessary for Jesus to come again to this earth to suffer another Passion.

It is interesting that Eve comes from Adam's flesh, however the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father and Son, did not become incarnate (neither as a man or woman) to suffer a 'separate' (bodily speaking) Passion. They didn't even became Incarnate just to watch Jesus die on the Cross. It was neither fitting nor necessary.

No angels, no other man; but One God-made-man, Jesus, was sufficient to redeem us.

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All Three Persons are present wherever one Person is present. So, in this sense, the Father and Spirit are present with Jesus in the Eucharist.

Ron,

Since all Three Persons are present wherever one Person is present, in a sense, all Three Persons were present with Jesus in His Passion, correct?..
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  #3  
Old 24th August 2010, 08:07 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Since all Three Persons are present wherever one Person is present, in a sense, all Three Persons were present with Jesus in His Passion, correct?..

Yes, all Three Persons were present at the Passion. But only the Second Person suffered the Passion, and He only suffered in His human nature, not in His Divine Nature.
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Old 24th August 2010, 11:20 PM
Shane Shane is offline
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Thank you for explaining that Ron. I never really thought about that until now.
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Old 25th August 2010, 12:04 AM
Pontifex Pontifex is offline
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Ron,

Will the Second Person incarnate remain in his body forever ?
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Old 25th August 2010, 12:31 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Ron,

Will the Second Person incarnate remain in his body forever ?

Yes, certainly. After the general Resurrection, when all the just have body and soul, they will be united to God in beatific vision and in beatific love and in beatific happiness. And God shows His love for humanity by remaining Incarnate forever. Then, we will all be very much like Christ Incarnate, except that we are finite and God is infinite.
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Old 25th August 2010, 08:45 AM
zouxi zouxi is offline
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Ron, excuse for my question that may look irrelevent, however i am not able to reconciliate the following two ideas:

-Mary said to st. Bridget that only her body and the body of her son are found in heaven.

and

-The fact that (as you say in your articles about heaven) heaven is a "spaceless place " outside and beyond material unicverse and time (outside space and time) and therefore it contains only spiritual matters.

My question is: how can a material body (i;e the body of jesus of mary) be found in a materialess location? is it a special thing done by God? if yes, is Mary in heaven with her body and soul united (like she was on earth)? In other words, is she still having her bodily facilities in heaven as on earth ( does she pray like humans do on earth, does she express her love to God with her body or with her soul,etc..)?

Thank you.
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  #8  
Old 25th August 2010, 11:47 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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from my book New Insights into the Deposit of Faith:

Time and Place

Time is the ordering and separation of events into a fixed sequence of before and after. Within Time, events occur in a certain sequence which cannot be changed. First one event happens; next another event happens. The ordering is absolute in the sense that, once a sequence of events has occurred, the order of the events cannot be changed. The order is fixed and cannot be altered. Events are not only ordered by Time, they are also separated by Time. Time orders and separates events.
...
Place is also an ordering and separation of things. Place is the separation and ordering of things and events into here and there. Notice that the definition of Place is basically the same as the definition of Time. Time and Place are fundamentally the same. Some scientists talk about a space-time continuum, i.e. that time and space are different aspects of the same thing. Time and Place order and separate events and things.
...
Time and Place are basically the same, and so timelessness is basically the same as placelessness. Therefore, Eternity must be both timeless and placeless, and must be both beyond Time and beyond Place.
...
God is Timeless and Placeless. God is everywhere at once and He is beyond Place. God is everywhen at once and He is beyond Time. God is within Time and beyond Time. God is within Place and beyond Place.

People say, "God is everywhere." But God can only be everywhere because He is beyond Place. Otherwise, He would be distributed in pieces, part of Him here and the rest of Him there. God is One, therefore, God cannot be stretched out in Place or stretched out in Time. God is One, therefore, God must be beyond Time and beyond Place. God is unbounded by Time and Place.
...
Heaven is like all Time put together at once, or like no Time at all. Heaven is like all Place put together at once, or like no Place at all. Heaven is beyond Time and beyond Place. Heaven is both timeless and placeless. Heaven does not refer merely to timelessness, or timefullness, but also to placelessness, or placefullness.
...
Heaven contains created things, such as the Angels, the souls of the Elect, the body and soul of Jesus Christ, and the body and soul of the Virgin Mary. Heaven was created by God as a type of container for certain created things. Heaven is like all Place put together at once, or like no Place at all. Heaven could be called placeless, or even place-full. Yet Heaven is outside of Place and beyond Place. Heaven is for the Blessed who dwell with God, Who is Eternity. To be with God is to be beyond Time and Place.
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Old 25th August 2010, 11:55 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zouxi View Post
My question is: how can a material body (i;e the body of jesus of mary) be found in a materialess location? is it a special thing done by God? if yes, is Mary in heaven with her body and soul united (like she was on earth)? In other words, is she still having her bodily facilities in heaven as on earth ( does she pray like humans do on earth, does she express her love to God with her body or with her soul,etc..)?

See my post above. Heaven is timeless and placeless. But Heaven is also time-full and place-full. It is like all time put together at once, or like no time at all. It is like all place put together at once, or like no place at all.

Created things are found in Heaven: angels, souls, The Virgin Mary with her body and soul united, Jesus in his body, soul, and Divinity united.

The current Heaven is not particularly fit for a person with body and soul united. Jesus and Mary can only be in Heaven united each with their own body because of a miracle of God. When the general Resurrection occurs, Scripture says that God takes away heaven and earth, to make a new heaven and a new earth. Why does He take away heaven also? Because the new heaven that He creates must be fit for body and soul since the general Resurrection restores each person to their own body, glorified.

Mary has a glorified body in Heaven, just as Jesus does. The glorified body is both natural and beyond nature; there is no need to eat or drink or sleep, etc. What exactly Mary and Jesus do in body, such as kneeling to pray or standing, sitting, etc. in heaven is not clear.
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  #10  
Old 25th August 2010, 11:57 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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In my blog post here:
http://ronconte.wordpress.com/
I discuss whether or not anyone else, other than Jesus and Mary, could be in Heaven, before the Resurrection, in body and soul.
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