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  #1  
Old 29th October 2010, 06:19 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default Did Jesus have the virtue of faith?

The virtues of faith and hope, in one sense, end when the soul enters Heaven and receives the Beatific Vision of God. For faith is belief in things not know; it is belief, not knowledge. And hope is for things not yet received; it is an anticipation of future reward in Heaven.

However, in another sense, the soul in Heaven still retains faith and hope, not in their earthly, somewhat limited form, but in a higher form, possessing in full all that faith believed and all that hope anticipated.

1. Jesus had the Beatific Vision of God, and so he did not have the lesser form of faith and hope. But he did have the higher forms of faith and hope, since He possessed in full all that faith believed and all that hope anticipated.

2. When Christ suffered His Passion, the Beatific Vision may well have been temporarily withheld from His human nature by His Divine Nature (with no harm to the hypostatic union), so that He could suffer more fully. At that time, then, He exercised the same forms of faith and hope that we too exercise.

3. Jesus had sanctifying grace from His Incarnation/conception. He was baptized in a true Sacrament of Baptism. He is like us in all things but sin. And so He must have possessed, in His human nature, the infused virtues of love, faith, and hope. But as noted above, the virtues of faith and hope were present in their higher forms, except during the Passion.
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Old 30th October 2010, 08:25 PM
Centurion Centurion is offline
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Before he expired on the cross, He said "My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?" Clearly He must have felt totally and completely alone- and yet He remained obdeiant even unto death- if faith can be understood as "belief even in the face of doubt" then clearly He is the ultimate example (as always!) of faith.
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Old 2nd November 2010, 05:57 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurion View Post
Before he expired on the cross, He said "My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?" Clearly He must have felt totally and completely alone- and yet He remained obdeiant even unto death- if

I think that out of all the pains He suffered, this was His worst, the feeling of being abandoned by God. The absence of God is what the souls in Hell experience and that's the worst thing that can happen to a soul. A person can lose a house, goods, money, a loved one, all this might make a person sad, but 'loosing' God - not recommended at all.
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  #4  
Old 16th December 2010, 01:02 PM
feyfifer feyfifer is offline
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Ron, ...if ever I needed some sort of heavenly affirmation of my presence here, your words in this post are just it!!!....hypostatic union!...If only I had this concept earlier in some discussions with atheists, i may even have converted some of them.
The topic was that "Was the person of Jesus Christ as the Messiah in human form conceived of by God, only after Man sinned ?" and if the Holy Spirit was replete in Jesus , how was it possible for Him to experience human death?

YOur words here are something of an epiphany to me!...I did have some vague idea that when Jesus submitted to God's will at Gethsemane, that the Holy Spirirt had to depart from HIm temporarily to effectuate the physical death..but the concept of the Beatic Vision is so much more lucid.

ANother stark sign from Heaven to me is in the response your post got from Centurion. I had only just a week back, got a fabulous insight and explanation regarding that same niggling doubt about "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani" that I had been harbouring since around 30 years!!..Was Jesus doubting his own faith in God after everything?...Was he after all just a man like us?..OF COURSE NOT!!....HE WAS QUOTING KING DAVID'S PROPHESY PSALM 22 !!!!!! ...and the content of the rest of the psalm shocked me into foolishness for ever thinking that Jesus was even an iota less than God Himself!!!!!!!!!!

And for Centurion, HI!... have a look at the link I'm adding here...not only was Jesus obedient unto death, imagine the human courage itself he had to fulfill the prophesy of David to a T, suffering the crucifixion, the taunts of the pharisees, and the Roman assaults...an omnipotent God!

[url="http://www.the4thcup.com/"]




Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
The virtues of faith and hope, in one sense, end when the soul enters Heaven and receives the Beatific Vision of God. For faith is belief in things not know; it is belief, not knowledge. And hope is for things not yet received; it is an anticipation of future reward in Heaven.

However, in another sense, the soul in Heaven still retains faith and hope, not in their earthly, somewhat limited form, but in a higher form, possessing in full all that faith believed and all that hope anticipated.

1. Jesus had the Beatific Vision of God, and so he did not have the lesser form of faith and hope. But he did have the higher forms of faith and hope, since He possessed in full all that faith believed and all that hope anticipated.

2. When Christ suffered His Passion, the Beatific Vision may well have been temporarily withheld from His human nature by His Divine Nature (with no harm to the hypostatic union), so that He could suffer more fully. At that time, then, He exercised the same forms of faith and hope that we too exercise.

3. Jesus had sanctifying grace from His Incarnation/conception. He was baptized in a true Sacrament of Baptism. He is like us in all things but sin. And so He must have possessed, in His human nature, the infused virtues of love, faith, and hope. But as noted above, the virtues of faith and hope were present in their higher forms, except during the Passion.
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  #5  
Old 16th December 2010, 01:08 PM
feyfifer feyfifer is offline
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HOw's this for another sign..that I just noticed?!?...

you posted this on my last birthday!!!!!!!!!






Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
The virtues of faith and hope, in one sense, end when the soul enters Heaven and receives the Beatific Vision of God. For faith is belief in things not know; it is belief, not knowledge. And hope is for things not yet received; it is an anticipation of future reward in Heaven.

However, in another sense, the soul in Heaven still retains faith and hope, not in their earthly, somewhat limited form, but in a higher form, possessing in full all that faith believed and all that hope anticipated.

1. Jesus had the Beatific Vision of God, and so he did not have the lesser form of faith and hope. But he did have the higher forms of faith and hope, since He possessed in full all that faith believed and all that hope anticipated.

2. When Christ suffered His Passion, the Beatific Vision may well have been temporarily withheld from His human nature by His Divine Nature (with no harm to the hypostatic union), so that He could suffer more fully. At that time, then, He exercised the same forms of faith and hope that we too exercise.

3. Jesus had sanctifying grace from His Incarnation/conception. He was baptized in a true Sacrament of Baptism. He is like us in all things but sin. And so He must have possessed, in His human nature, the infused virtues of love, faith, and hope. But as noted above, the virtues of faith and hope were present in their higher forms, except during the Passion.
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  #6  
Old 16th December 2010, 01:24 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Jesus was quoting the Psalm, but He was not merely quoting the Psalm. In my opinion, He did feel abandoned in his human nature, because of His great sufferings, the great sinfulness of humanity, and the temporary ceasation of the Beatific Vision. He did not lack faith in God; he was expressing emotion, not a lack of faith.
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