CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group  

Go Back   CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group > Ecumenism > Catholics and other Christians
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 13th December 2010, 05:42 AM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 416
Default Salvation question: adventist.

Main question: Salvation is through Jesus alone or not?

questions:

1st premise:Perhaps it is universal that everyone has a belief of God, with the exception of course of the atheists. Such belief is premised on the hope for a good life in heaven after the life here on earth. Failing to achieve this hope means being destroyed or being punsihed eternally in hell.


2nd premise: is that man cannot by himself save himself and bring himself to heaven even if he wishes to. It is imminent that man shall go to hell with the way things are going on because sin is inevitable because of the weakness of the flesh. ONly God or The Divine can save him/her.

The third premise is that it is stated in the Bible that it is only through the sacrifice of Jesus that man may be able to free himself from the inevitable hell. And this may be achievable only through faith in Jesus. This is supported by the following verses:

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Now, it is taught among Roman Catholics that Mary is co-mediatrix and co-redemptrix of Jesus. Hence some form of services and prayers are appealed to Mary to attain favor with God.

Now the question is whether this faith of Mary is in vain or not.

Another question is: Is it correct to add to what Jesus had already done?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 13th December 2010, 12:24 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,775
Default

Salvation is through Jesus alone, but many are saved without knowing Him by name, and many are saved implicitly by Him, even though they explicitly reject Him or His Church.

Mary assists Jesus in all that He does for our salvation. She has no work of salvation of her own. She immerses herself entirely in Christ's work of salvation.

Many are saved without realizing that Mary is helping Christ to save them.
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 13th December 2010, 11:10 PM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 416
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Salvation is through Jesus alone, but many are saved without knowing Him by name, and many are saved implicitly by Him, even though they explicitly reject Him or His Church.
How is this (in bold) possible? Jesus said, the only way to the FAther is through Him (Jesus) (JOhn 14:6). And we should ask the Father in His (Jesus name).

Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. How can one call on Him if they don't know His name?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Mary assists Jesus in all that He does for our salvation. She has no work of salvation of her own. She immerses herself entirely in Christ's work of salvation.
How does Mary do this? What kind of assistance does she do? Is there a written word of God on this?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Many are saved without realizing that Mary is helping Christ to save them.

Why would Jesus need help? Is Jesus' work of salvation not complete? Is there a proof of this? Is there a written Word of God on this?

It appears from the Bible that there should be a clear consciousness on who is it that they call:

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 13th December 2010, 11:57 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,775
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by myLivingBread View Post
How is this (in bold) possible? Jesus said, the only way to the FAther is through Him (Jesus) (JOhn 14:6). And we should ask the Father in His (Jesus name).

[1 Corinthians 10]
{10:1} For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and they all went across the sea.
{10:2} And in Moses, they all were baptized, in the cloud and in the sea.
{10:3} And they all ate of the same spiritual food.
{10:4} And they all drank of the same spiritual drink. And so, they all were drinking of the spiritual rock seeking to obtain them; and that rock was Christ.

The Israelites were saved by Christ, though they did not know Him by name. For Christ is God, and God is truth and justice and love, by His very Nature. So whoever loves truth and does justice, and acts with true selfless love of neighbor, knows Christ -- even without knowing Him by name, even if they think they are rejecting Him by name. Living a life of true and justice and love of neighbor is living like Christ and is accomplished by the graces Christ obtained on the Cross, whether a person realizes it or not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by myLivingBread View Post
How does Mary do this? What kind of assistance does she do? Is there a written word of God on this?

She assists Christ in salvation by directing us to Him, by imitating Christ in her sinless life so perfectly that her life is a reflection of His Goodness, thereby teaching us about Him. She offers God her prayers and her sufferings and her whole self, in Christ, for our sake.


Quote:
Originally Posted by myLivingBread View Post
Why would Jesus need help? Is Jesus' work of salvation not complete? Is there a proof of this? Is there a written Word of God on this?

It appears from the Bible that there should be a clear consciousness on who is it that they call:

[Colossians 1]
{1:24} For now I rejoice in my passion on your behalf, and I complete in my flesh the things that are lacking in the Passion of Christ, for the sake of his body, which is the Church.

It is Jesus' plan that we have a role in the salvation of ourselves and of others. For Jesus saves us by love, but this love implies that we should all have a concern for the salvation of one another. Therefore, it is fitting to the plan of God that we be given roles in helping one another to be saved. For salvation is about love and love requires us to help one another.

Jesus chose to need our help. That is why there is a Church, and that is why we are taught to pray for one another and to do good works for one another.
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 14th December 2010, 11:35 PM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 416
Default

[1 Corinthians 10]
{10:1} For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and they all went across the sea.
{10:2} And in Moses, they all were baptized, in the cloud and in the sea.
{10:3} And they all ate of the same spiritual food.
{10:4} And they all drank of the same spiritual drink. And so, they all were drinking of the spiritual rock seeking to obtain them; and that rock was Christ.

The Israelites were saved by Christ, though they did not know Him by name. For Christ is God, and God is truth and justice and love, by His very Nature. So whoever loves truth and does justice, and acts with true selfless love of neighbor, knows Christ -- even without knowing Him by name, even if they think they are rejecting Him by name. Living a life of true and justice and love of neighbor is living like Christ and is accomplished by the graces Christ obtained on the Cross, whether a person realizes it or not
.

Very insightful verses. But the interpretation may be improvable.

So, an atheist if he's doing these things, he acknowledges Christ? So they could be living like Christ?

And therefore they could get saved, without knowing or acknowledging Jesus as Savior and Lord?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 14th December 2010, 11:50 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,775
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by myLivingBread View Post
So, an atheist if he's doing these things, he acknowledges Christ? So they could be living like Christ?

And therefore they could get saved, without knowing or acknowledging Jesus as Savior and Lord?
Yes, yes, and yes.

An atheist might be saved by loving his neighbor, thereby loving God and accepting Christ without realizing it. So, outwardly he rejects God, but inwardly -- without realizing it -- he accepts the love of God and neighbor.

Fourth Lateran Council: "There is indeed one universal church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice."

Pope John Paul II: "Since Christ brings about salvation through his Mystical Body, which is the Church, the way of salvation is connected essentially with the Church. The axiom 'extra ecclesiam nulla salus' -- 'outside the Church there is no salvation' -- stated by St. Cyprian (Epist. 73, 21; PL 1123 AB), belongs to the Christian tradition. It was included in the Fourth Lateran Council (DS 802), in the Bull 'Unam Sanctam' of Boniface VIII (DS 870) and the Council of Florence (Decretum pro Jacobitis, DS 1351). The axiom means that for those who are not ignorant of the fact that the Church has been established as necessary by God through Jesus Christ, there is an obligation to enter the Church and remain in her in order to attain salvation (cf. LG 14). For those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation, as I wrote in the Encyclical 'Redemptoris Missio,' salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ's redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. Redemptoris Missio, n. 10). It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her. It is also mysterious in itself, because it is linked to the saving mystery of grace, which includes an essential reference to the Church the Savior founded. In order to take effect, saving grace requires acceptance, cooperation, a 'yes' to the divine gift. This acceptance is, at least implicitly, oriented to Christ and the Church. Thus it can also be said that 'sine ecclesia nulla salus' -- 'without the Church there is no salvation.' Belonging to the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, however implicitly and indeed mysteriously, is an essential condition for salvation." (All Salvation Comes through Christ, General Audience, 31 May 1995.)
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 15th December 2010, 07:03 AM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 416
Default

Does this mean that faith is no longer necessary?

It appears that salvation is by good works. This does not sound Biblical.

It appears also that it is the church affiliation that brings the salvation, rather than Jesus.

Is it not forcing a person to go to heaven if he does not believe in God but is simply living a moral life, outside of faith?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 15th December 2010, 12:14 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,775
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by myLivingBread View Post
Does this mean that faith is no longer necessary?

It appears that salvation is by good works. This does not sound Biblical.

It appears also that it is the church affiliation that brings the salvation, rather than Jesus.

Is it not forcing a person to go to heaven if he does not believe in God but is simply living a moral life, outside of faith?

Faith in God is shown by works of love toward neighbor. The atheist might have implicit faith by his faith in the goods of love, truth, justice, etc.

The teachings of the Faith are based on Tradition, Scripture, Magisterium, not on Scripture alone.

Jesus has chosen to save us by a means that requires us all to help one another, because this is a more loving means, one that requires us to act with love for one another. The Church is the means by which Jesus saves.

The person is not forced to go to Heaven. He has implicitly chosen Heaven, just as the unrepentant wicked person who does not believe in Hell has nevertheless chosen Hell by his rejection of love of God and neighbor.
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 15th December 2010, 04:43 PM
Brother Brother is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,873
Default

Each person who was ignorant about Jesus Christ but did good works of love will go to a higher level of Purgatory first to acknowledge Christ and learn the things he was ignorant about on this earth first and then the person can enter Heaven, for no one can enter Heaven without realizing that Jesus is the Messiah. This higher level is for learning rather than punishment but it is still purification.

People who did know about Jesus and His Church but still did not wanted explicitly to be incorporated in His Church although did good works of love will most likely go to a some lower level of Purgatory than the previous one.

Each person will be justly judged by God according to the deeds done here on this earth before going to Heaven, Purgatory or Hell.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 3rd January 2011, 04:04 AM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 416
Default

Ron, what is human tradition?

If the Scripture and the Tradition are both sacred, then they should not contradict each other.

What if there is a contradiction between the Sacred Tradition and the Sacred Scripture, which one will prevail?

Since the Scripture would be unchangeable unlike the tradition, is it not the rightful check on perverted sacred traditions?

The scripture, being the written Word, is not subject to the caprice and decisions of leaders and any human being, unlike traditions, which are easily influenced by people and great leaders.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.