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  #11  
Old 3rd January 2011, 04:30 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by myLivingBread View Post
Ron, what is human tradition?

If the Scripture and the Tradition are both sacred, then they should not contradict each other.

What if there is a contradiction between the Sacred Tradition and the Sacred Scripture, which one will prevail?

Since the Scripture would be unchangeable unlike the tradition, is it not the rightful check on perverted sacred traditions?

The scripture, being the written Word, is not subject to the caprice and decisions of leaders and any human being, unlike traditions, which are easily influenced by people and great leaders.

human tradition is not Sacred Tradition. Sacred Tradition is the deeds wrought by God in the history of salvation. Sacred Tradition teaches truths on matters of faith, morals, and salvation. But human tradition is merely custom. The Catholic Faith has some human traditions, such as using certain color vestments for certain days, or customs about whether to make the sign of the Cross with the left hand, or the right, or starting with the left shoulder or the right. Mere human tradition does not teach truths of faith, morals, or salvation. Sacred Tradition does.

Sacred Tradition is transmitted by the lives of all the faithful who imitate Christ, especially the Saints and martyrs. So it is not corrupted in the process of transmission.

Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture are each infallible, and so one can never contradict the other. There is no such thing as a 'perverted sacred tradition' -- what you are referring to is human tradition. Jesus criticizes certain corruptions in the human traditions of the Pharisees, in Matthew 23.
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  #12  
Old 3rd January 2011, 10:42 PM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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Since these Sacred Traditions are not written but are merely passed on, how are these determined from human traditions that are presently practiced?

Why are certain human traditions still maintained in the Roman Catholic Church when these are not Sacred anyway? It appears that many of these practiced human traditions are contradictory to Sacred Scriptures and yet these are perpetuated within the RCC. In fact some of these traditions can be traced to pagan practices.
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  #13  
Old 4th January 2011, 01:57 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Originally Posted by myLivingBread View Post
Since these Sacred Traditions are not written but are merely passed on, how are these determined from human traditions that are presently practiced?

Why are certain human traditions still maintained in the Roman Catholic Church when these are not Sacred anyway? It appears that many of these practiced human traditions are contradictory to Sacred Scriptures and yet these are perpetuated within the RCC. In fact some of these traditions can be traced to pagan practices.

Sacred Tradition teaches truths on matters of faith and morals.
Sacred Tradition is witnessed to by the words and lives of the Saints.

human tradition is not on the subject of faith and morals, and is not witnessed to by the Saints. It is not hard to distinguish between the two.

We imitate the love of Jesus, but we don't dress the way that He dressed. His Way of Love is part of Sacred Tradition. One particular manner of dress or another is human tradition (customs).
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  #14  
Old 4th January 2011, 05:02 PM
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I look at salvation very simply as follows: Each human person will find salvation or damnation in their acceptance or rejection of the truth they were given. For a Christian, we understand that truth teaches that we must be baptised. For a non-Christian, they may not have known this truth, so they will be judged on the truth they were given and how they responded to it. An athiest can only be saved if they have not rejected essential truth's they were given. Catholic's will be saved in the same way, by accepting the truth's given. "The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth" (1Tim 3:15). "To whom much has been given, much is expected". I believe this bible quote is referencing truth.

Last edited by Mark : 4th January 2011 at 05:06 PM.
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  #15  
Old 5th January 2011, 12:26 AM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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The way Jesus loved is a Sacred Tradition? I could see that this is part of the Scripture. I thought Sacred Tradition is supposed to complement and is separate from the Scripture.

What other things are added to these Sacred Traditions?

Thanks for your kind indulgence.
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  #16  
Old 9th January 2011, 11:45 PM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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Is repetitive prayer part of the Sacred Tradition?

The use of rosary or beads in praying, is that part of these Sacred Traditions?

What about the keeping of the sabbath, is this not part?

When would you consider is the proper start in time when these Sacred Traditions started? It seems some of these Sacred Traditions were not even present during Jesus' time?

Would you consider the life of Jesus part of the Sacred Tradition? How about Paul's?
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  #17  
Old 10th January 2011, 12:59 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myLivingBread View Post
Is repetitive prayer part of the Sacred Tradition?

The use of rosary or beads in praying, is that part of these Sacred Traditions?

What about the keeping of the sabbath, is this not part?

When would you consider is the proper start in time when these Sacred Traditions started? It seems some of these Sacred Traditions were not even present during Jesus' time?

Would you consider the life of Jesus part of the Sacred Tradition? How about Paul's?

Tradition is the deeds of God in salvation history, especially the deeds of Christ. Tradition is primarily the Way of Life of Jesus. Certain truths follow from this Way of Life. Certain truths are revealed by the deeds of God.

Particular prayers are not Tradition, though they may express some truth from Tradition. The use of rosary beads is not Sacred Tradition.

Paul's life and the life of any Saint is a way of transmitting the truths of Tradition. The primary truth of Tradition is the way of Life of Jesus. Whoever imitates Jesus helps to pass on this Way of life to each successive generation.
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  #18  
Old 10th January 2011, 04:08 PM
Brother Brother is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myLivingBread View Post
Is repetitive prayer part of the Sacred Tradition?

[Luke 11]
{11:1} And it happened that, while he was in a certain place praying, when he ceased, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.”
{11:2} And he said to them: “When you are praying, say: Father, may your name be kept holy. May your kingdom come.
{11:3} Give us this day our daily bread.
{11:4} And forgive us our sins, since we also forgive all who are indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.”
{11:5} And he said to them: “Which of you will have a friend and will go to him in the middle of the night, and will say to him: ‘Friend, lend me three loaves,
{11:6} because a friend of mine has arrived from a journey to me, and I do not have anything to set before him.’
{11:7} And from within, he would answer by saying: ‘Do not disturb me. The door is closed now, and my children and I are in bed. I cannot get up and give it to you.’
{11:8} Yet if he will persevere in knocking, I tell you that, even though he would not get up and give it to him because he is a friend, yet due to his continued insistence, he will get up and give him whatever he needs.
{11:9} And so I say to you: Ask, and it shall be given to you. Seek, and you shall find. Knock, and it shall be opened to you.




[Luke 18]
{18:1} Now he also told them a parable, that we should continually pray and not cease,
{18:2} saying: “There was a certain judge in a certain city, who did not fear God and did not respect man.
{18:3} But there was a certain widow in that city, and she went to him, saying, ‘Vindicate me from my adversary.’
{18:4} And he refused to do so for a long time. But afterwards, he said within himself: ‘Even though I do not fear God, nor respect man,
{18:5} yet because this widow is pestering me, I will vindicate her, lest by returning, she may, in the end, wear me out.’ ”
{18:6} Then the Lord said: “Listen to what the unjust judge said.
{18:7} So then, will not God grant the vindication of his elect, who cry out to him day and night? Or will he continue to endure them?
{18:8} I tell you that he will quickly bring vindication to them. Yet truly, when the Son of man returns, do you think that he will find faith on earth?”



{18:13} And the tax collector, standing at a distance, was not willing to even lift up his eyes to heaven. But he struck his chest, saying: ‘O God, be merciful to me, a sinner.’
{18:14} I say to you, this one descended to his house justified, but not the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled; and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”

Last edited by Brother : 10th January 2011 at 04:13 PM.
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  #19  
Old 10th January 2011, 11:38 PM
myLivingBread myLivingBread is offline
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I still do not have an answer why these non-Sacred Traditions are practiced in the RCC. If the Rosary is not Sacred Tradition, then where did it begin? Why is it being perpetuated, taught and asked to be practiced by people of God, at least by the RCCs?

Being an SDA, I can't help but ask that if it is the life of Christ that should be prached and emulated, why aren't the RCCs observing the 7th day as Jesus did?

Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

In fact on the 2nd page of the (Passion), it says that the 7th day should be kept holy.
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  #20  
Old 11th January 2011, 02:39 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myLivingBread View Post
I still do not have an answer why these non-Sacred Traditions are practiced in the RCC. If the Rosary is not Sacred Tradition, then where did it begin? Why is it being perpetuated, taught and asked to be practiced by people of God, at least by the RCCs?

Being an SDA, I can't help but ask that if it is the life of Christ that should be prached and emulated, why aren't the RCCs observing the 7th day as Jesus did?

Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

In fact on the 2nd page of the (Passion), it says that the 7th day should be kept holy.

So are the above questions copied from another discussion group? Who is this SDA (seventh day adventist) you are arguing with?

The Catholic Faith consists of doctrines found in Tradition, Scripture, Magisterium, and in disciplines (practices, rules, ways of doing things). We need to have various forms of prayer, various liturgical services. The human person is body and soul, and so we need to have exterior practices as well as interior beliefs.

The Magisterium is the authoritative interpreter of Tradition and Scripture, and the Magisterium teaches that the Sabbath day has been moved from Saturday (the seventh) to Sunday (the first) because that is the day of the Resurrection. The Old Covenant sabbath was Saturday. The New Covenant has a new sabbath, Sunday. This signifies the change to the new and greater covenant.
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