CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group  

Go Back   CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group > Catholicism > Tradition, Scripture, Magisterium
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12th December 2013, 04:50 PM
St. Thomas More St. Thomas More is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New York State
Posts: 374
Default Question about Liturgy

Where does Liturgy come from? If it comes from the Church, does it come from Tradition, Scripture, or the Magisterium?

I know that much of the liturgy emanates from Scripture, but it liturgical scripture is somewhat different, from my understand, and someone has to decide to implement/change liturgy.

Does it come from the Magisterium? That doesn't seem to fit, because it's not a "teaching."

Does it come from Tradition? Or Sacred Tradition?

What part of the "Church" does liturgy come from?
__________________
St. Thomas More
--"The King's Good Servant, but God's First"
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12th December 2013, 07:09 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,753
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by St. Thomas More View Post
Where does Liturgy come from? If it comes from the Church, does it come from Tradition, Scripture, or the Magisterium?

I know that much of the liturgy emanates from Scripture, but it liturgical scripture is somewhat different, from my understand, and someone has to decide to implement/change liturgy.

Does it come from the Magisterium? That doesn't seem to fit, because it's not a "teaching."

Does it come from Tradition? Or Sacred Tradition?

What part of the "Church" does liturgy come from?

According to Unam Sanctam, the Church has two types of authority:
1. the spiritual authority, also called the Magisterium, which issues teachings (doctrines)
2. the temporal authority, which issues judgments of the prudential order: rules, rulings, and all that pertains to discipline

Certain doctrines pertain to the Mass and other liturgical services, such as what constitutes a valid consecration of the Eucharist, or valid ordination of a priest.

However, most points of liturgical form are discipline, not doctrine. Doctrines are teachings of truth on faith, morals, and salvation. Disciplines are practical aspects of religious worship, and so these are changeable. The Church has authority over both doctrine and discipline.

The Old Covenant had both doctrines and disciplines, both given by Divine Revelation. Yet the Council of Florence taught that all the Old Covenant disciplines have been dispensed by Christ. In their place, the Church establishes and changes from time to time the New Covenant disciplines.

The basis of Church authority to issue decisions on discipline is found in the New Testament, as when Paul gives instructions on the Mass to certain Churches. But it also goes back to the Old Testament, when the worship of God was given a particular form in rituals and practices of the Jews. That is the starting point of liturgical form for the Church.

And this conclusion is confirmed by the example of Christ at the first Mass. He held the first Mass (and the first example of liturgical form for the Mass) as a form of the Passover supper. Yet no subsequent Mass (as far as we know) had that same form. So Christ established the liturgical form of the New Covenant, based on the liturgical forms in the Old Covenant. And yet He also gave the Church authority to change those forms.

Christ established the Mass, but not with immutable specifics.
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12th December 2013, 07:13 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,753
Default

On the question of Tradition and liturgical form, Tradition and Scripture establish the need for liturgical form and the authority of the Church over liturgical form. But no particular point of liturgical form is per se of Tradition or of Scripture. Anything that is of liturgical form (discipline, not doctrine) is changeable; it is not an infallible and irreformable teaching.
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 13th December 2013, 04:30 PM
St. Thomas More St. Thomas More is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New York State
Posts: 374
Default Liturgy

My understanding is that, before the Council of Trent, liturgy only changed organically - small changes from various quarters that would be incorporated into the Mass.

After that Council, the "tradition" changed (so to speak), and all revisions to liturgy had to go through the Vatican. That continues to date.

Then, in Vatican II, Sacrosanctum Concilium spelled out the conditions for liturgical reform (which included the fact that changes should grow "organically" from rites already in use) and that the new liturgy should meet the circumstances of modern man (and sacred chant should be given pride of place!).

The initial product from Vatican II was the 1965 Missal, which is kind of in between the Traditional Latin Mass and the later product - the 1970 Novus Ordo.

Does this sound correct?
__________________
St. Thomas More
--"The King's Good Servant, but God's First"
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 13th December 2013, 05:55 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,753
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by St. Thomas More View Post
My understanding is that, before the Council of Trent, liturgy only changed organically - small changes from various quarters that would be incorporated into the Mass.

After that Council, the "tradition" changed (so to speak), and all revisions to liturgy had to go through the Vatican. That continues to date.

Then, in Vatican II, Sacrosanctum Concilium spelled out the conditions for liturgical reform (which included the fact that changes should grow "organically" from rites already in use) and that the new liturgy should meet the circumstances of modern man (and sacred chant should be given pride of place!).

The initial product from Vatican II was the 1965 Missal, which is kind of in between the Traditional Latin Mass and the later product - the 1970 Novus Ordo.

Does this sound correct?

No, I don't agree. There has been no change in the authority of the Church over liturgical form over time. The first Council of the Church (at Nicea) decided a point of liturgical form (Canon XX)

"In so far as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord's Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, so that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere, it pleases the holy Council that prayer be made to the Lord while standing."

The Popes, Councils, and Bishops have always exercised authority over liturgical form.

"After that Council, the 'tradition' changed (so to speak), and all revisions to liturgy had to go through the Vatican. That continues to date."

No matter what a Council decides on discipline, a Pope or subsequent Council can change it. So the subsequent Popes are not beholden to the Council of Trent or the Second Council of the Vatican on liturgical form. Pope Francis can authorize whatever changes he wishes on the Mass.

In my speculative eschatology:
I think that Pope Francis will restrict the use of the Vetus Ordo, and allow a multitude of forms and perhaps ad libitum variations in the form of the Novus Ordo. But then his conservative successor will widen the use of the Vetus Ordo, and restrict the forms of the Novus Ordo to one or a few.

You can disagree with a Pope or Council on a matter of discipline or liturgical form. But they have the authority to make decisions in those matters. And no Pope or Council is bound by the decision on discipline of past Councils or past Popes. Otherwise, the authority of each successive Pope and Council would be diminished as decisions on discipline accumulated.
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 13th December 2013, 10:20 PM
St. Thomas More St. Thomas More is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New York State
Posts: 374
Default Liturgy

OK. Thanks.

What do you think the restrictions will be on TLM? It seems that it's pretty restricted now. You need the faithful to go to the pastor, and the pastor to approve. This requires a choir to sing chant, acolytes who know TLM, different liturgical books, readings, etc. It's not so easy. If the pastor does not approve, there's an appeal to the Bishop, and then the Vatican, from Summorum Pontificum.

But what could the Pope do to minimize a mass that isn't widely said to begin with? Can he prohibit local Pastors from saying it, or allowing it, in their parishes?

What form do you think this restriction will take?
__________________
St. Thomas More
--"The King's Good Servant, but God's First"
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 13th December 2013, 11:02 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,753
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by St. Thomas More View Post
OK. Thanks.

What do you think the restrictions will be on TLM? It seems that it's pretty restricted now. You need the faithful to go to the pastor, and the pastor to approve. This requires a choir to sing chant, acolytes who know TLM, different liturgical books, readings, etc. It's not so easy. If the pastor does not approve, there's an appeal to the Bishop, and then the Vatican, from Summorum Pontificum.

But what could the Pope do to minimize a mass that isn't widely said to begin with? Can he prohibit local Pastors from saying it, or allowing it, in their parishes?

What form do you think this restriction will take?

I don't know what the restrictions might be. The Pope has the authority to restrict TLM as he sees fit to do. He could let Bishops decide if they want TLM in their diocese at all. He could restrict it to certain orders, and disallow it for diocesan priests.
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 14th December 2013, 12:28 AM
Pontifex Pontifex is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 602
Default

Here is a quote taken from the Encyclical Mirari Vos (Gregory XVI) where it is clearly stated that the Pope is not bound by his predecessors on questions regarding temporal authority, including the Liturgy.

The reference to the ''no private person'', in my view, clearly refers, today, to those extreme conservatice catholics who utterly reject any changes to the
Liturgy.


Quote:
Let those who devise such plans be aware that, according to the testimony of St. Leo, "the right to grant dispensation from the canons is given" only to the Roman Pontiff. He alone, and no private person, can decide anything "about the rules of the Church Fathers." As St. Gelasius writes: "It is the papal responsibility to keep the canonical decrees in their place and to evaluate the precepts of previous popes so that when the times demand relaxation in order to rejuvenate the churches, they may be adjusted after diligent consideration."

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Greg16/g16mirar.htm
__________________
While awaiting these things, be diligent, so that you may be found to be immaculate and unassailable before him, in peace. 2 Peter 3:14
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 14th December 2013, 03:42 PM
St. Thomas More St. Thomas More is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New York State
Posts: 374
Default Tradition

How and when does Sacred Tradition bind us? What practices of the Church are part of sacred tradition?
__________________
St. Thomas More
--"The King's Good Servant, but God's First"
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 14th December 2013, 07:18 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,753
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by St. Thomas More View Post
How and when does Sacred Tradition bind us? What practices of the Church are part of sacred tradition?

Sacred Tradition teaches doctrine, not discipline. No mere practices are part of Sacred Tradition. Sacred Tradition teaches the whole moral law, and all the articles of faith. Practices and liturgical form are discipline, not doctrine.

So when we people talk about tradition and the Mass, they are not referring to Sacred Tradition, but to human traditions, which are changeable.

The teachings of Tradition and Scripture are binding when taught by the Magisterium, or when we perceive the teachings of Tradition and Scripture as truth, and are thereby bound by our consciences to believe and to act in accord with that belief.
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.