CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group  

Go Back   CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group > Eschatology and Private Revelation > Medjugorje and Garabandal
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 21st January 2015, 04:07 AM
daytonafreak daytonafreak is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 571
Default The Date of The Miracle

I would like to open a discussion as to when you think The Miracle will happen and thus The Warning. I would like to start with a question.

It was my understanding that one of the visionaries at Garabandal said something to the effect of "The Great Miracle will not be on a feast day of Our Lord or Our Lady?" Can anyone confirm this?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 21st January 2015, 05:38 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,753
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by daytonafreak View Post
I would like to open a discussion as to when you think The Miracle will happen and thus The Warning. I would like to start with a question.

It was my understanding that one of the visionaries at Garabandal said something to the effect of "The Great Miracle will not be on a feast day of Our Lord or Our Lady?" Can anyone confirm this?

Yes, that's right.
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 21st January 2015, 03:23 PM
daytonafreak daytonafreak is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 571
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Yes, that's right.


And concerning this point it is my understanding that the visionary (I am almost certain that it was Conchita) made this statement after looking at a liturgical calendar, but I am assuming it was a liturgical calendar from Spain. Or What is probably more likely is that she just made this statement from memory. i.e. she knew the day of The Miracle and she knew that she was not required to attend Mass that day.

Now, I know that different countries have different Holy Days of obligation. I see that at the current time The Ascension is not a Holy Day of obligation in Spain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_day_of_obligation

I am assuming that in 1963, around about the year Conchita might have made this statement, The Ascension was not a Holy Day of obligation in Spain. But maybe someone who speaks Spanish can confirm this?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 21st January 2015, 04:37 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,753
Default

The assertion is not that the day of the miracle is not a holy day of obligation. I believe the assertion was made by the Virgin Mary to Conchita, not by Conchita after looking at a liturgical calendar.

The Virgin Mary's point was, in my interpretation, to indicate that the day of the Miracle was May 12th rather than May 13th (our Lady of Fatima).

Blessed Imelda died on May 12th, but since her death occurred on the day before the Feast of the Ascension (May 13th that year), at the end of the vigil Mass for that Feast, her feast day is celebrated on May 13th. So either May 12th or May 13th could be interpreted as the day of her feast.
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 21st January 2015, 05:51 PM
daytonafreak daytonafreak is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 571
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
The assertion is not that the day of the miracle is not a holy day of obligation.

Ok, so that was never the assertion, I understand that, but what I am getting at is the person who made the assertion most likely meant "holy day of obligation", see below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
I believe the assertion was made by the Virgin Mary to Conchita, not by Conchita after looking at a liturgical calendar.

The Virgin Mary's point was, in my interpretation, to indicate that the day of the Miracle was May 12th rather than May 13th (our Lady of Fatima).

Ok, so your example here is Our Lady of Fatima. Our Lady of Fatima, for example, is only a minor feast day and was only put on the universal calendar in 2002. I don't think that whoever made the original assertion intended to rule out minor feast days of Our Lord and Our Lady, for the liturgical calendar is absolutely riddled with minor feast days of this type.
http://www.catholictradition.org/Mar...feasts.htm#MAY

Including this one: Our Lady of Power May 12 [Aubervillers, France]


Rather, my opinion is that whoever made the assertion was speaking through the eyes of a little girl who lived in a remote village in Spain, figuratively. and most likely knew nothing of minor feast days, only holy days of obligation, and further more, only holy days of obligation in Spain.

My point in all this is that I believe it is much more likely that The Miracle occurs on a very prominent day, and that "the assertion" that we are talking about makes much more sense when interpreted as above.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 21st January 2015, 06:04 PM
daytonafreak daytonafreak is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 571
Default my conclusion as of now

So, my opinion as of right now, is that The Miracle occurs on May 13th 2021.

That day is:

The Ascension (not a holy day of obligation in Spain, but it is in other places)
Our Lady of Fatima
Our Lady of the Most Blessed Sacrament
Dedication of Our Lady of Martyrs Basilica, Rome
Bl. Imelda Lambertini

There is a strong connection between all of these feast days, for Bl. Imelda died on The Ascension, Her feast day also coincides with Our Lady of Fatima, and she is a Martyr of The Most Blessed Sacrament.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 21st January 2015, 06:51 PM
daytonafreak daytonafreak is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 571
Default Additional info

Dedication of Our Lady of Martyrs Basilica, Rome
http://romanchurches.wikia.com/wiki/...ia_ad_Martyres

"Traditionally the consecration was on 13 May, which was then celebrated as the feast-day of all Roman martyrs not specially celebrated by name. Pope Gregory III (731-41) consecrated a chapel with the same dedication at the old St Peter's, and this was the origin of the 1 November date. The 13 May celebration was suppressed, but it is still kept in this church as the dedication date."

Our Lady of the Most Blessed Sacrament (also see St. Peter Julian Eymard)
http://tomperna.org/2013/05/13/monda...sed-sacrament/
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 21st January 2015, 07:42 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,753
Default

There are a couple of problems with your proposal. First, there is no basis for changing "not a feast day" of our Lord or our Lady into "not a holy day of obligation". The Ascension is a holy day of obligation under Canon Law in the Latin Rite (though Bishops can exempt from this obligation). It is a feast day of our Lord, and May 13th is a feast day of our Lady (of Fatima).

Second, the late timing of your proposal, in 2021, does not have support from any other points of your eschatology. You don't have a comprehensive eschatology to support that year, or any year. Basically, you are working from too few pieces of information as your starting point.
__________________
Ron Conte
Roman Catholic theologian
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 22nd January 2015, 03:12 AM
daytonafreak daytonafreak is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 571
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
There are a couple of problems with your proposal. First, there is no basis for changing "not a feast day" of our Lord or our Lady into "not a holy day of obligation". The Ascension is a holy day of obligation under Canon Law in the Latin Rite (though Bishops can exempt from this obligation). It is a feast day of our Lord, and May 13th is a feast day of our Lady (of Fatima).

Put yourself in the shoes of Conchita at that time, she doesn't know the difference between major or minor feast days. All she knows is that there are certain days besides Sunday that she is required to attend Mass, and in Spain she is not required to attend Mass on Ascension Thursday. Our Lady of Fatima is a minor feast day which was only approved by the local bishop in Portugal in 1930 and then not added to the main calendar in 2002. Again, Conchita knew none of this. I think whoever made the assertion is putting it in a way that Conchita would understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Second, the late timing of your proposal, in 2021, does not have support from any other points of your eschatology. You don't have a comprehensive eschatology to support that year, or any year. Basically, you are working from too few pieces of information as your starting point.

You are absolutely right Ron, I do not have a comprehensive eschatology, but you do and I have read nearly everything you have written on the subject. I believe it is just a matter of tweaking a few of your ideas which I will briefly go through here.

1. One of your reasons for picking an earlier date was the age of Joey Lomanagino, but he is now deceased. So that point is mute.
2. Another reason was the three Popes prophecy but I believe it needs to be taken in the proper context. Consider this video at 1:21:12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoqpuYK826o
"Conchita said to her mother, Pope John is dead, Our Lady told me now that there will be only three more Popes and then it will be the end of time but not the end of the world" First notice the context, "Pope John is dead" it is not "his reign has ended" but "Pope John is dead". Benedict XVI reign is over, but he is not dead. Also consider the rest of the wording "and then it will be the end of time", well, it is not the end of the world, so end of what time? I think it is the end of the time to repent before The Warning. Also, we all know the controversy about the three Popes prophecy. About how it is possible that Conchita is not counting Pope Paul I due to his short reign. See this link:
http://whatisgarabandal.blogspot.com...regarding.html

about halfway down, point number three which I will post below.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 22nd January 2015, 03:13 AM
daytonafreak daytonafreak is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 571
Default

3. The four Popes after Pope John XXIII rather than three… This is rather startling news to those who had read only about “three more Popes…” Actually this was reported in a book in the German Language published in the early 1990’s, but it seems that most followers of the Garabandal drama were not aware of this and apparently are still unaware of this. Conchita said at the time of the death of Pope John XXIII that Our Lady had told her that there would be three more Popes and then would come the end of the times.
Mr. Albrecht Weber, the author of the book in German mentioned above, had become involved in Garabandal in 1963 and became friendly with Conchita. On November 14, 1965, the day after the last apparition of Our Lady in Garabandal, Mr. Weber interviewed Conchita at her home in the presence of her mother. There was also present with Mr. Weber an interpreter. During that interview, it came out that when Conchita had spoken on the very day that Pope John XXIII died of “Three more Popes and then would come the end of the times,” her mother had asked her several questions.
In response to one of her mother’s questions, Conchita responded that Our Lady had actually said that there would be four more Popes but that She was not counting one of them. When Conchita’s mother heard that she strictly forbade Conchita to repeat that again as her mother feared there would be erroneous interpretations and much gossip. People might wrongly believe that one of the Popes might be false or bad, etc. During that conversation with her mother, Conchita also said that Our Lady had told her that one of the Popes would have a very short reign.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.