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  #1  
Old 19th November 2015, 12:50 PM
ExCelciuS ExCelciuS is offline
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Default God's Mercy and Will on 'bad' Destined People

Hi Ron, actually after have discussions with someone I cared about, we come to one question, and that is about God's Mercy and Will. And in that discussion we don't understand, if God want us to be in heaven with Him, why there is people with 'bad' roles in life, like: Judas Iscariot, Adolf Hitler, and other unrepentant people who end up in hell, who create that 'bad' roles people? Is it God? If God give them 'bad roles' like fated or destined (in case of Judas Iscariot, whatever Judas do, it seems that he is destined to be the betrayer of Jesus - means bad roles which is destined by God).

If God want us to be in heaven, and if God is just, why He destine some people to be ended in hell - unrepentant till end?

Could you give some opinion on this?

Thanks.
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Old 19th November 2015, 01:13 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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In the Catholic view, predestination includes the free will. Every human person is given an abundance of the graces needed to be saved. God predestines no one to Hell. Predestination is a result of God's foreknowledge of our free will decisions, in the face of His merciful loving grace.

As concerns roles, society always has leaders, some good some bad. They are good or bad based on free will. God does not choose an evil leader.

If everyone on earth avoided mortal sin, then Jesus would not have been put to death. He would have saved us in some other way. So Judas did not need to sin mortally for us to be saved. In fact, Judas repented of his sin of betrayal, but then he sinned by suicide and went to Hell.
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  #3  
Old 19th November 2015, 01:22 PM
ExCelciuS ExCelciuS is offline
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Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
In the Catholic view, predestination includes the free will. Every human person is given an abundance of the graces needed to be saved. God predestines no one to Hell. Predestination is a result of God's foreknowledge of our free will decisions, in the face of His merciful loving grace.

As concerns roles, society always has leaders, some good some bad. They are good or bad based on free will. God does not choose an evil leader.

If everyone on earth avoided mortal sin, then Jesus would not have been put to death. He would have saved us in some other way. So Judas did not need to sin mortally for us to be saved. In fact, Judas repented of his sin of betrayal, but then he sinned by suicide and went to Hell.

Hi Ron, if it's free will, then I am sure that God already knows what we will choose, since nothing hidden before Him, and Jesus already know what Peter will choose on that rooster event, and yet, Peter still choose to betray Jesus 3 times, but He is repent and saved later.

If God already knows that Peter will betray Him 3x times, and yet God didn't interfere with Peter's free will and like in the event of St. Mary accepted the role to be the mother of Jesus, is our free will greater than God? If a man (eg: Hitler) choose to be bad, what can God do about Him? nothing?

To put simply, Peter's free will to choose to betray Him 3x on that rooster even is greater than Jesus' warning to him, is it true? Even Jesus already warning Peter, yet, Peter didn't have enough 'will' not to do that betrayal, is it destined for Peter to do that?

When Jesus said to Peter, "you will betray me 3x times before rooster" does it mean "you must betray me 3x times before rooster", I think it's kinda absolute and yeah even it's free will, Peter free will must choose that betrayal..., so it's not free will actually, it's a must.., I hope you got my point here, what do you think?

And in case of Mary, it is 'written' that Mary should conceive Jesus, because it's 'written', so Mary free will 'must' choose that has written...

So free will vs written by God's Word?
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Old 19th November 2015, 07:07 PM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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No, not at all. The Church's teaching is absolutely clear on this point. We all have free will, and God's foreknowledge of what we will do, does not control that choice.

What did you have for lunch yesterday? You know what you chose to eat, and that cannot change, yet the choice was free. God knows that we will choose in the future, but that knowledge does not control the choice.

In the case of Mary, prevenient grace kept her free from all sin. But that is another subject area. Her will was no less free because she was full of grace.

God is all powerful. But He has chosen to give us free will and reason, so that we might know and love, just as He knows and loves. God does not control our free will; he loves and respects us as persons.
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Old 19th November 2015, 10:37 PM
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ExCelciuS,

Here is an analogy that may help you: You're watching a movie for the second time. You know who is going to get killed, who is the murderer and who will be saved in this movie. Even though you wish all of the characters are saved and it's not your fault that there was a "bad guy", a murderer, you do not control the plot of the movie and it happens as you already know.

God knows with absolute certainty our entire lives with our free will choices (which He does not control), including the ample opportunity to repent, because He is beyond the sphere of time.
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Old 19th November 2015, 10:39 PM
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We are able to love only by being free. If we are not free, then there is no love. We are not God's puppets.
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Old 20th November 2015, 02:08 AM
ExCelciuS ExCelciuS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother View Post
ExCelciuS,

Here is an analogy that may help you: You're watching a movie for the second time. You know who is going to get killed, who is the murderer and who will be saved in this movie. Even though you wish all of the characters are saved and it's not your fault that there was a "bad guy", a murderer, you do not control the plot of the movie and it happens as you already know.

God knows with absolute certainty our entire lives with our free will choices (which He does not control), including the ample opportunity to repent, because He is beyond the sphere of time.

Hi Ron and Brother, thanks for your replies, I'm starting to get your point here, but need a little more explanation. If I relate it to Brother's analogy, I assume that God is the director of that movie, and this Director choose who will become the bad guy, who will be saved,etc, so let's speak on the 'bad guy' side of think, the bad guy think "why the Director choose me to be the bad guy and be the murderer? in this movie, why the director choose some body else to be the good guy? it's not fair, I want to be a good guy but the Director 'predestined' me with the bad guy role, how am I supposed to defy the Director 'predestined' role to me"?
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Old 20th November 2015, 03:53 AM
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExCelciuS View Post
Hi Ron and Brother, thanks for your replies, I'm starting to get your point here, but need a little more explanation. If I relate it to Brother's analogy, I assume that God is the director of that movie, and this Director choose who will become the bad guy, who will be saved,etc, so let's speak on the 'bad guy' side of think, the bad guy think "why the Director choose me to be the bad guy and be the murderer? in this movie, why the director choose some body else to be the good guy? it's not fair, I want to be a good guy but the Director 'predestined' me with the bad guy role, how am I supposed to defy the Director 'predestined' role to me"?

God does not choose who will have which role, good or bad. So the movie analogy doesn't work on that point.

You are using a Protestant idea of predestination, where God decides the fate of each person. The Catholic understanding is that free will decides the role and the eternal destination of each person. But God knows the result.
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Old 20th November 2015, 02:18 PM
ExCelciuS ExCelciuS is offline
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Hi Ron, ok, at last I get it, so in the beginning God did create human soul with free will and destiny, and in that point God already know what or where this human soul will end. And there is no bad or good, it is our free will that make us be a good or bad person. Even for a bad person, like many kings in bible, God actually did something to them, He try to warn them, He try to save them by sending prophets, and at the final attempt to save us, He did send His One Beloved Son, BUT, it is our free will, that counts at end, and because of that Jesus often says "Your faith has saved you" --> can be translated "Your free will to choose to believe in Me (Jesus Christ) has saved you" ...

Thanks Ron and Brother, once again you cast out my confusion.. and give light to my growing faith..

Cheers and God bless us all ^^
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Old 20th November 2015, 04:21 PM
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Sorry, I didn't explain well the point of the analogy. In the analogy, God is NOT the director or the writer of the plotline of the movie. God is in YOUR (the viewer)'s perspective. You do not have control over what happens in the plot of the movie because you didn't make it (even though you already know what happens in the entire movie because you already saw it) just as God does not have control over our free will decisions because He loves and respect us.
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