CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group  

Go Back   CatholicPlanet.Net discussion group > Eschatology and Private Revelation > Apparitions of Jesus or Mary
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 27th December 2006, 10:14 PM
Posts: n/a
Exclamation Our Lady of Guadalupe, her mantle of stars

As many of you know, Virgin Mary appeared to indian Juan Diego on Dec 12th, 1531 in Mexico City as Our Lady of Guadalupe.

As a proof of her presence, she left an enormous gift to the Church in Mexico and the whole world: the tilma, a rough fabric made of vegetal fiber called ixtle, where Juan Diego carried the roses to the Bishop Zumarraga, that he used as a coat; which is since then venerated in the Basilica of Guadalupe, where the Virgin Mary left her image as she appeared to Juan Diego.

Throught the centuries, the autenticity of the tilma as origined by a miracle impression, has been questioned and discussed by erudites and people of the Church.

This year there was a motion picture called "Guadalupe", a combination of documentary, soap opera, mexican folklore, religious investigation and drama, that mentioned some of the scientific discoveries that confirm the autenticity of the tilma.
The movie was a little disapointing to me, because of the way it handled the story, but thatīs not the point of this comment...

I am not going to discuss in detail all the different elements on the tilma and what surrounds it (historic, artistic and scientific) that have puzzled the investigators, skeptics and believers. I also know the versions of the skeptics (leaded by the ex-abbot of the Basilica, Guillermo Schulemburg) and what they have to say about the conditions and supposed restorations on the tilma, that they say is of man made origin.

One of the findings that are mentioned on the official website of Guadalupe Basilica, mentions a study that remarks the coincidence of the position of the constellations at Heaven in Dec. 12th and the stars that appear on the mantle of our Lady of Guadalupe.

This study is described briefly (in spanish) here:

I asked in an Astronomy forum if someone could verify this article, by replicating the constellations in a Software Simulator, as they were seen on Dec. 12th, 1531 in Mexico City; and comparing it to the constellations shown in the previous webpage.

I was a bit dissapointed because the people on this forum (who know a lot more about astronomy than I do) , said that the supposed coincidence of constellations is nothing more than a fictional tale; that the constellations DO NOT correspond to the way they are observed in the sky (not even in that Dec. 12th date), they are placed the other way around, etc.

However one person in this forum was curious enough to do what I was asking them to do, to simulate the stars as they were seen on Dec. 12th 1531 in Mexico. He sent me the sky images, and some days later I compared them, and found out that the constellations on the left side of the mantle of Our Lady of Gpe. actually MATCHED THE CONSTELLATIONS SHOWN IN THE IMAGE GENERATED BY THE ASTRONOMY SIMULATOR.

However I could not find the constellations shown on the right side with the sky image this guy sent me.

I only went a little deeper on my research and was able to counter the skeptical argument about the stars on the mantle (at least the left side) by using an astronomy software, and confirming once again the image is authentic, the way Our Church has declared. I know that believing on Our Lady of Guadalupe is not a dogma of Faith, but in Mexico even the atheists are "guadalupanos".

PS: If someone in interested on getting the images where I compared the software sky simulation of Dec. 12th and the stars on the mantle of Our Lady, you can send me an e-mail in my personal adress: and I will send it to you.
Reply With Quote
Old 27th December 2006, 11:52 PM
Posts: n/a


I know very little about astronamy -- I can identify the North Star, the big dipper, the little dipper and orion, and that's it. But I was wondering when you were examining the constellations on the mantle and comparing them to the sky images if you were doing the comparison with the constellations the way they are on Our Lady's mantle while she is wearing it, or with the mantle layed out flat. I had the thought that if you layed the mantle flat then the constellations on the right side would be flipped and moved to the left of the constellations on the left side. Just a thought.

Also, I saw the movie Guadalupe last week and I thought it was excellent. I was thinking the way they handled the story was an effort to make it dramatic and whow them searching for the truth. I espcecially liked the encounters between Juan Diego and Our Lady. I thought this part was awesome! The special effects used to simulate the apparitions, and the love and devotion portrayed by the character of Juan Diego were both incredible. I definitely recommend it to anyone if it plays in your area.

Reply With Quote
Old 28th December 2006, 09:51 PM
Posts: n/a

Hello Darrell, thanks for your comment.

I was doing the comparison with the constellations the way they are on Our Lady's mantle while she is wearing it.

Itīs impossible to do them with the mantle layed out flat, because itīs a two dimensional image. All you cando is imagine how would the mantle look layed out flat, but there is no way to be sure of how it would look, because of the numerous folds of the mantle.

Besides if you analize the constellations (specifically parts of Ofiuco & Escorpion) on the image above, you will see some stars are outside of the mantle, and are placed at the sun rays that shine from the back of Our Lady. If you lay out flat the mantle you will miss these stars.
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT. The time now is 09:43 PM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.